Would like some advice on proprietary trading firms.

StuckeyBowler · Jun 21, 2003

I know I must come across as naive, but I do believe I have an idea of what I'm getting into. The fact that there are no barriers to entry means squat to me. I think the real level of intelligence comes from what you do with your education/degree, not from the piece of paper it's printed on. I see people without great educational backgrounds making a killing in the market. I think I've got the right ambition to succeed, which what it pretty much comes down to. I'm not expecting to be spoon fed, I want to succeed on my own merit, and I believe prop trading is the purest form to accomplish this.

Anyone who says going corporate is the "easier road" is sadly mistaken. I know several guys who graduated a few years ahead of me who took that road and are actually unemployed at the moment (after several hard years of labor at the major banks). Is it something to "fall back on"? I guess so, but I can't imagine "falling back" on a quant job paying peanuts when I reach 30.

You all make it sound like I'm applying for a job at McDonald's. As if I'm too overqualified to be in a situation where I can make more than all my peers combined in one single year.

Ivy League degree or no degree, doesn't and shouldn't make a difference. I think it's all about the attitude.

Quote from speedy:

I agree with Samba here. You graduated from a top school. You should be smart enough to see what these firms really are. Listen to what these traders are telling you. Good luck.

StuckeyBowler · Jun 21, 2003

Exactly. There are absolutely no guarantees in the corporate world. And sadly, it does have everything to do with connections and who you know. Not necessarily how well you perform.

The road is not as easy as many of you may think. Sure, the first two years may be fun, and I may be paid more than my other peers, but not many people know that the average 2 year trainee never follows through after their jobs expire at these banks. (They get burned out and find something else to do).

Quote from Mecro:

Don't hype up corporate jobs please. It's also a gamble and the lushy top positions are given to a small minority. Count in nepotism, serious ass kissing, overworking yourself as a slave. Count in mental and physical health.

I've worked in corporate enough to know, at least my stance on it. Not to say that I would turn some of those jobs down.

Most people are sheep. So for most the standard well known way is to go corporate.

You can always go back to get your MBA.

Satyrican · Jun 21, 2003

So you think Prop firms would be more ACCOMODATING?

Bullshit. Not to be rude, but prop firms isnt exactly easy street. The corporate culture - for a lack of a better term - is much more conducive. I am not saying that this is the road to success. On the contrary, my point is that you have a naive assumption of trading vs corporate world... to be honest, on the surface they're pretty different, but once you peel all those layers, you see that they're two heads of hte same beast ....

Clearly, trading runs in your blood. What most posters is advocating, is why not pay your DUES? Institutional "learning" is a luxury most traders do not have.

Quote from StuckeyBowler:

Exactly. There are absolutely no guarantees in the corporate world. And sadly, it does have everything to do with connections and who you know. Not necessarily how well you perform.

The road is not as easy as many of you may think. Sure, the first two years may be fun, and I may be paid more than my other peers, but not many people know that the average 2 year trainee never follows through after their jobs expire at these banks. (They get burned out and find something else to do).

roumeo · Jun 21, 2003

I show respect to you. I graduated from top school too. But right now, I am doing prop trading. In my mind, nothing is easy, just choose what you like, what you are interested in. Everything is changing, but your interests won't change. IT is not hot now, but back to 2000, ppl headed to IT industry crazily. Just remember, either in institutional world or in prop trading world, if you want to be top, you need to devote same efforts on it. No difference. If you just want to be regular ppl, institutional world might be more comfortable.

Quote from StuckeyBowler:

I know I must come across as naive, but I do believe I have an idea of what I'm getting into. The fact that there are no barriers to entry means squat to me. I think the real level of intelligence comes from what you do with your education/degree, not from the piece of paper it's printed on. I see people without great educational backgrounds making a killing in the market. I think I've got the right ambition to succeed, which what it pretty much comes down to. I'm not expecting to be spoon fed, I want to succeed on my own merit, and I believe prop trading is the purest form to accomplish this.

Anyone who says going corporate is the "easier road" is sadly mistaken. I know several guys who graduated a few years ahead of me who took that road and are actually unemployed at the moment (after several hard years of labor at the major banks). Is it something to "fall back on"? I guess so, but I can't imagine "falling back" on a quant job paying peanuts when I reach 30.

You all make it sound like I'm applying for a job at McDonald's. As if I'm too overqualified to be in a situation where I can make more than all my peers combined in one single year.

Ivy League degree or no degree, doesn't and shouldn't make a difference. I think it's all about the attitude.

calibertrader · Jun 21, 2003

The guy is looking to trade at a place where there are at least some successful traders he can bounce ideas off of or pick up helpful info from. He doesn't seem to be looking for someone to sit there and hold his hand, which most failing traders want.

If you don't have alot of capital to start with then the prop firm way is the best way to go. That's reall the only place he'll get the leverage needed to make a living out of this business.

You guys all think that Ivy league grads are god sends, I've seen plenty of them sending around resumes cause they can't find a job. Guess what, they're usually some of the first layed off cause they command the highest salary.

Now I agree, working for a GS/LEH would be an experience, but I've dealt with those guys when I worked for a hedge fund, and I've never seen more stressed out or tired poeple in my life. These guys dreamed of a day they can leave and make it on their own. Plus most of those guys are not great traders, they just seem that way cause they have order flow and trade off of that. Doesn't take a genius to do that.

This guy wants to see if he can make it out on his own. It'll only take about a year for him to find out if he'll make it or not. Believe me, he can always fall back on his degree. The year he'll spend trying trading on his own, will be looked at as if he went to Europe for a year after college.

Any smart manager/HR would see that this guy can think outside the box rather then go with the norm, or safe way!!!!

Whichever way you choose to go, do what you think is right. This way, there's no regrets.

StuckeyBowler · Jun 21, 2003

Unfortunately, you haven't been reading very closely to what I've been writing.

Trading vs Corporate world the same? I'm naive? Are you a trader? Working in independent/prop trading is excercising your entrepeneurial ambitions of placing your fate of success or failure on yourself. Working in corp is complying to superiors, doing more mechanical work, and limiting your growth prospectives in favor of stability. Yes, they both deal in the world of finance and world economy, but that's where the similarities end. Again, it's all about attitude. I'm sure if you put two guys from both worlds in one room, they will not have much in common.

I grew up with a knack of finding good, effective resources to feed off of. I honestly believe that by going the prop/independent trader route, I will meet a whole lot more guys who think the same way as I do.

Quote from Satyrican:

So you think Prop firms would be more ACCOMODATING?

Bullshit. Not to be rude, but prop firms isnt exactly easy street. The corporate culture - for a lack of a better term - is much more conducive. I am not saying that this is the road to success. On the contrary, my point is that you have a naive assumption of trading vs corporate world... to be honest, on the surface they're pretty different, but once you peel all those layers, you see that they're two heads of hte same beast ....

Clearly, trading runs in your blood. What most posters is advocating, is why not pay your DUES? Institutional "learning" is a luxury most traders do not have.

speedy · Jun 21, 2003

Quote from StuckeyBowler:

I know I must come across as naive, but I do believe I have an idea of what I'm getting into. The fact that there are no barriers to entry means squat to me. I think the real level of intelligence comes from what you do with your education/degree, not from the piece of paper it's printed on. I see people without great educational backgrounds making a killing in the market. I think I've got the right ambition to succeed, which what it pretty much comes down to. I'm not expecting to be spoon fed, I want to succeed on my own merit, and I believe prop trading is the purest form to accomplish this.

Anyone who says going corporate is the "easier road" is sadly mistaken. I know several guys who graduated a few years ahead of me who took that road and are actually unemployed at the moment (after several hard years of labor at the major banks). Is it something to "fall back on"? I guess so, but I can't imagine "falling back" on a quant job paying peanuts when I reach 30.

You all make it sound like I'm applying for a job at McDonald's. As if I'm too overqualified to be in a situation where I can make more than all my peers combined in one single year.

Ivy League degree or no degree, doesn't and shouldn't make a difference. I think it's all about the attitude.

Look, I'm not totally against prop firms in your situation. You took it the wrong way. Just consider who you are interviewing with. Don't make the mistake of starting at the wrong place. That will stay on your resume (per se) forever. A reputable place is very important.

StuckeyBowler · Jun 21, 2003

I'm not in the business to build my resume. I'm in it to make money and succeed. Simple as that. If I worried about that, I've already lost.

If someone succeeds in trading, does it really matter which firm he made it at? I don't understand why you guys think firm name value is of utmost importance when trading is ultimately an individual sport? If I was a hedge fund manager and was presented with two candidates for hire: a guy from Lehman who traded on an institutional trading desk and netting 1 million for the firm, and a guy from "Hoser Trading" prop firm daytrading and netting 1 million for his own account, I would most definitely select the prop daytrader....for the mere fact that the daytrader did that on his own without the help of firm namebrand orderflow. Besides, isn't independent trading the purest form of the art? Institutional traders seem to be given a heck of a lot more "lay ups" in terms of profitable trades.

Quote from speedy:

Look, I'm not totally against prop firms in your situation. You took it the wrong way. Just consider who you are interviewing with. Don't make the mistake of starting at the wrong place. That will stay on your resume (per se) forever. A reputable place is very important.

speedy · Jun 22, 2003

Do you know how many prop shops went under and traders never got their money? But, that's not the only reason why reputable firms make a difference. What good is making a million a year if you don't get paid. I thought you started this thread because you wanted advice. You seem to know what you want to do already so everything else said would be moot. Good luck.

Satyrican · Jun 22, 2003

Within all those arguments you presented:

The most salient is the assumption that you will succeed based on attitude and hard work.

Why are you so POSITIVE? What about Guys like Niederhoffer - smart, dedicated, hard working.... and basically broke with 6 college tuition bills to be paid...

This fact parlayed with your "Princeton" education really cast doubt on your true intention...