Woods PUTTS LIKE CRAP!

jem · Sep 17, 2013

Dave Pelz a short game coach to many of the top guys... who brought his engineering background from NASA to golf... agrees with you. (about sbst.)

however

The best putter designer in the world who has all the machines and does the analysis, Scotty Cameron, says a putter should be arced.

Scotty... makes a good point... you can read it here.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/clubs/scotty_cameron_detour_putter_review

Two other possibilities.

1. the nike putter is not as good as the scotty cameron which woods and McIroy used prior to the nike. (I think the little injections of molding into the face completely messes up the sound and the feel. (I do not know if the pros really use the model they pretend they do.)

2. many speculate that tiger was on PEDs.
so he may be missing confidence or physical ability.
In the past I gave tiger the benefit of the doubt. But with him not calling the penalty on himself and his taking the bad drop at the masters I realize he does not respect the games rules as he once apparently did.

Scataphagos · Sep 17, 2013

Quote from jem:

"... Scotty Cameron, says a putter should be arced.

Scotty... makes a good point... you can read it here.

Read it. Don't agree.

As far as getting the putt on line, the ONLY thing that matters is that the face is square to the intended line at impact.

Arcing the putter has it off the intended line for all of the stroke... except at the point of impact IF you get it squared.... which is the entire point.

jem · Sep 17, 2013

Quote from Scataphagos:

Read it. Don't agree.

As far as getting the putt on line, the ONLY thing that matters is that the face is square to the intended line at impact.

Arcing the putter has it off the intended line for all of the stroke... except at the point of impact IF you get it squared.... which is the entire point.

I like Pelz's stuff so I preferred sbst for a long time... now I am in flux. For instance as I get more familiar with a course or I face straight putts I like sbst and a mallet design with a high moi and a face balance.

But as I have gotten much better at putting... now when I face side hill puts or I play on new courses with fast greens I find I need more toe hang less moi and a slight arc.

Scataphagos · Sep 17, 2013

Quote from jem:

I like Pelz's stuff so I preferred sbst for a long time... now I am in flux. For instance as I get more familiar with a course or I face straight putts I like sbst and a mallet design with a high moi and a face balance.

But as I have gotten much better at putting... now when I face side hill puts or I play on new courses with fast greens I find I need more toe hang less moi and a slight arc.

Even on putt with significant break, you still have the same objective.... hitting the ball to/toward some point in the path and gravity does the rest.

As in trading, K.I.S.S. What makes one good at putting is feel for the speed, reading the green, and the ability start the ball on the proper trajectory. Most of the "technology" in putters is just marketing gimmick. Of course there is the "this one feels good in my hand/stroke" aspect.

denner · Sep 17, 2013

Quote from Scataphagos:

Even on putt with significant break, you still have the same objective.... hitting the ball to/toward some point in the path and gravity does the rest.

As in trading, K.I.S.S. What makes one good at putting is feel for the speed, reading the green, and the ability start the ball on the proper trajectory. Most of the "technology" in putters is just marketing gimmick. Of course there is the "this one feels good in my hand/stroke" aspect.

You are overstating your case.

Even though I agree with you that Tiger Woods' putting performance has dropped off...some perspective is warranted. IMO, (and I know that I have alot of company), he is without question the greatest putter in the history of the game.

I'm certain the stats would back up that opinion. I've watched and played alot of golf in my life and there isn't a guy that I've ever seen that was so good inside of 6 feet (nevermind how many "bombs" he dropped outside of 30 feet).

I do agree with the concept that straight back and thru would probably be the way to go for consistency over the length of a career...I see a guy such as Steve Stricker as a good prototype (heel even a bit off the ground and a very upright position back and thru).

btw-do you have me on ignore Scat?

Scataphagos · Sep 17, 2013

Quote from denner:

[B"... he is without question the greatest putter in the history of the game.

btw-do you have me on ignore Scat? [/B]

He may well HAVE BEEN the greatest putter... but now he putts (short ones) like CRAP! (To be fair, he's still an excellent lag putter.)

Am I supposed to have you on ignore??

Scataphagos · Sep 20, 2013

At East Lake, just as I described before...

1. Missing too many fairways

2. Approach shots waaayyy off (playing off the pin, trying to "work" the ball towards the pin, missing the "work" part of it)

3. Putting the short ones like CRAP!

I'm a fan... I not only want to see him win, I want to see him shatter all the records... to "put them out of reach" for all-time... but I'm also objective. Annoying to see him stubbornly continue to think like a blockhead.

jem · Sep 20, 2013

Quote from Scataphagos:

Even on putt with significant break, you still have the same objective.... hitting the ball to/toward some point in the path and gravity does the rest.

As in trading, K.I.S.S. What makes one good at putting is feel for the speed, reading the green, and the ability start the ball on the proper trajectory. Most of the "technology" in putters is just marketing gimmick. Of course there is the "this one feels good in my hand/stroke" aspect.

Not arguing as if you are wrong... just trying to spitball and come to a conclusion.

Given that I agree about picking target and letting gravity do the work is correct... I guess I sense that you have a much tighter margin for error on side hill lies. On straight puts you are just putting it on line and letting the hole get in the way. I fell with sliders you have to really be able to pick a very tight line. (I feel like it takes a scalpel or a putter with a small but very sweet spot... instead of something wide and a bit dead. .

Hence the need for more of an old school putter with less perimeter weighting more feel and hence a bit of an arc.

Not sure if the physics backs me up here... so I have to think about it.

Scataphagos · Sep 23, 2013

Quote from jem:

"...
Hence the need for more of an old school putter with less perimeter weighting more feel and hence a bit of an arc.

Not sure if the physics backs me up here... so I have to think about it.

Here's a thought... what if putting were like shooting pool? You got down on your knees, sighted your line along the stick and struck the putt like a cue ball...

If so, you would want to have a "true stroke of the cue"... "straight back, straight forward*" along the trajectory of the intended line. All of the energy is focused where the tip strikes the ball... no "weighting" above, below, outside... and no arc to the stroke.

If you putt with an "arc in your stroke", you also have the task of squaring the putter face to the intended line at impact.... an additional and unnecessary complication.

Someone made the comment, "... players with the the long, anchored putter putt with an arc in their swing..." All I've ever heard from commentators about them is "straight back, straight through". Seems to me arcing the putter with it anchored in your chest or chin would be nearly impossible.

*If you're not a decent pool player, you probably don't know how difficult it is to have a pure pool stroke... straight back, straight through with no wobble.

AAAintheBeltway · Sep 23, 2013

There is no question that the ideal way to strike a putt is with a square putter face moving in the exact direction you want t he putt to move. SBST sounds simpler, but you have to think about how you move the putter face SBST.

To achieve a true SBST stroke, the shaft angle has to remain constant. You can't do that without moving the entire handle, shaft, head assembly together as one piece, or by manipulating your wrist. That is a lot easier on sort putts than long ones.

If the angle of the shaft between your hands and the face is changing, you are either arcing the putter or you are doing some complex manipulations to keep it square. The anchored and long shaft guys are taking wrist manipulation out of it, but they're still arcing the face. There is no way they can avoid it.

The whole debate is a bit academic in my opinion. Pace is far more important than line in putting, and for most people, pace is more easily controlled by arcing the putter. It's just a more natural stroke.

When you think about it, you only really control the direction of the ball for the first few inches. The key to accuracy is picking the spot a foot or so in front of your ball you want it to cross and then hitting with the proper pace.

Any discusion of Tiger's putting has to involve the word luck, which golf commentators would choke on. There is skill involved in getting a long putt close to the hole. Sinking it is more a matter of good fortune. I am reasonably confident that on some of Tiger's memorable long putts, he could repeat the stroke 15 or 20 times without sinking a second one. The Tour average on 6 footers is only around 50%. For 20 footers it is in the low single digits. Take a putt like that long downhiller he dropped in at Torrey Pines in his "broken leg" Open. I bet the Tour average on that exact putt would not be more than 3 or 4 percent. So say Tiger is twice as good as the average. He's still looking at less than 10 percent probability. He could stand there all day and not make that putt again.