Winning in the EMinis

[NihabaAshi]

Quote from SumJurk:

Don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say it was garbage. I just get tired of getting sage advice from people who can't make a dime trading.

I guess it's just my distaste for the vendors and seminar teachers, who never show any proof they know what their talking about. Like I said, there was no offense intended.

If someone feels they're qualified to guide us, I think they should at least show a recent monthly account statement proving they are qualified.


Otherwise, it's just the same old rhetoric...

Hi SumJurk,

I don't think MaxMin intentions are to give specific trading advice as most vendors, seminar teachers, books et cetera will do.

Therefore, I think its a little unfair to draw a line from MaxMin to those you distaste.

In my opinion, so far what I've gotten from this thread...its philosophical and gets into the psychological aspects of trading and winning in any aspects of life.

Heck...most of the stuff MaxMin has said so far can be applied to sports.

When I competed on the national level and international level in sports...

I worked very closely with a sports psychologist...

His athletic achievements was that of a guy that started varsity in high school and was a training partner of some college standout and nothing more.

He had no medals on his walls, no trophies on his office shelf...

Yet, he had a reputation for helping athletes in many different sports to move up to that next level in their performance when they couldn't do such prior.

I've been around long enough and you sound like you may have also to know if MaxMin philosophical or psychological discussions would be helpful to someone that has underestimated that aspect of the game.

I myself have found a few things he has said so far as healthy reminders of what we as traders need to be mentally ready for in the business of trading or any other aspect of life.

I am not saying he's a qualified trading pyschologist...

I'm saying...he doesn't need to post to you nor to I a trade performance record just as much as a guy telling us we should get plenty of rest the night before trading.

It's common sense advice...

doesn't need any backtesting nor proof of performance record.

In addition, there are lots of beginners in trading or in any aspects of life that may read this thread and see some value in the discussions and some veteran traders like me that find some of the discussions a healthy reminder...

Its not about winning...its about knowing who you are.

Although MaxMin has clearly stated this thread is about winning...

MaxMin also states this thread is about winning in general....

My favorite quote so far in this thread (a healthy reminder for me)...

Quote from MaxMin:

What is confidence? Confidence is different than faith, a hope that leads to action that leads to results. Confidence makes things seem clearer, increases our ability to act and creates an environment where peak performance is possible...

Confidence in self is paramount. Believing that you have the capability to do the right thing is the first step. Next comes the belief that you CAN do the right thing then WILL do the right thing follows over time and experience...

But confidence will keep you going when few things can. It points you in the right direction and gives you something to work towards. It also makes you feel good and feeling good and trading well are not so distant relatives. Do you have confidence?

I last heard similar words in the 80's from a teammate that would go on to make the Olympic team...

I recently heard similar words from a relative that's a preacher and was having an informal discussion with those that attended his church.

Healthy Reminders instead of viewing it as the same old rhetoric.

NihabaAshi

 

[SumJurk]

Quote from NihabaAshi:

Hi SumJurk,

I don't think MaxMin intentions are to give specific trading advice as most vendors, seminar teachers, books et cetera will do.

No, I don't believe he's going to give any specific trading advice, either. But, he has given us the impression that he's making plenty of dough, and if you listen to me, you too, may be like me someday.

Here's a quote from his opening post" Every year has gotten easier after the first 4, and the last two have been the easiest yet. My road has been long and hard but the rewards have also been incredible!"

It sounds to me, he could easily show a recent monthly statement showing the incredible! rewards.

If he wants me to praise him...he'll have to.

 

[porgie]

I have NOT kept many trading notes for long...If they don't work, I throw them out...or if I find something better, I throw them out.....except the most interesting tidbits..I found myself with too much "good" information...when it came together it was a combination of interesting tidbits....only bigger runs are signaled, and signaled early at close to beginning of run .....it works, but not before 3 years and 4,000 plus hours of immense pleasure backtesting 500 charts with every conceivable combination of parameters... it is the most interesting venture one could imagine....The system tells me what to do...I took the human factor out of it....NOT MUCH THINKING ALLOWED... I know it is wrong to be like this, and I love to help people, but my system will always belong to my immediate family only...if possible...I only post here because of loneliness...

 

[NihabaAshi]

Quote from SumJurk:

No, I don't believe he's going to give any specific trading advice, either. But, he has given us the impression that he's making plenty of dough, and if you listen to me, you too, may be like me someday.

Here's a quote from his opening post" Every year has gotten easier after the first 4, and the last two have been the easiest yet. My road has been long and hard but the rewards have also been incredible!"

It sounds to me, he could easily show a recent monthly statement showing the incredible! rewards.

If he wants me to praise him...he'll have to.

Hi SumJurk,

You can't be serious...if someone ran around ET demanding last week, last month, last year account statements (such easily forged with Adobe PhotoShop)...

everytime they heard someone saying...

"I've been doing well"

"I had a great week"

"I saw improvement in my trading"

"Trading has been good to me"

"Loss lots of money last year but doing great this year"

"Made 6 ES points yesterday"

"Traded my first 100 lots"

"Profits from trading helped me go from fulltime to parttime construction worker"

"Best indicator for catching a big trend is..."

"Price and volume is all you need to make money"

whatever...

You should be demanding the same from all the other 100's of posters at ET to show you proof.

When was the last time you venture in the Psychology thread?

For example...

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=29705

Why aren't you there or in all the other threads demanding that guy show proof of 4 years of Net profitability?

Another example...

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29459

That guy worked as a marketmaker for 15 years and done well...why aren't you there demanding proof?

Is it because there posts contain some personal aspects of their life...does that make it believable?

Is it the fact they mentioned losses that makes them believable...MaxMin did mentioned (as you quoted) that the first 4 years may have been difficult (losses, struggling, breakeven)?

What makes MaxMin seem like all the other vendors, seminar teachers when the others at ET hasn't..

based on the fact you aren't demanding performance records from others?

What if this thread was in the Pyschology forum...would a performance record for the past month be required to verified or support their statement when they say things are going well now...good rewards?

As for performance records themselves...

Here's a different view about performance records...the next time someone saids Gann doesn't work, Fib doesn't work, CCI doesn't work, Candlesticks doesn't work, Pivot Points doesn't work, Murray Math doesn't work, Price action only doesn't work...

Should we demand performance records from those traders to verify that they actually applied those methods to come to the conclusion that such causes losses on a consistent bases?

SumJurk...once again...statements similar MaxMin is common place here at ET by traders that aren't even selling anything.

These are traders freely sharing their road to profits or road to losses...

Should we demand Baron ask all members of this forum to send him their last month statements to verified they are trading because this is a forum for traders and we don't want pretenders to post here?

Take anything said here with a grain of salt or else you risk walking away with to much negativity or worst...allowing it to affect your attitude about trading.

Here's my point on this...

MaxMin has said my road has been long and hard but the rewards have also been incredible...

I did not interpret that as saying...your road will have incredible rewards if you listen to my common sense philosophical or psychological discussions with other traders.

Remember this...this is a discussion forum...we discuss our trading experiences here...

For example...

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29214&perpage=1&pagenumber=13

Quote from SumJurk:

Sounds good. I think you made a good choice, in choosing pivot levels. It's a good solid strategy, there's no interpretation involved. The market's either at these levels, or it's not.

Good Luck!

Can you prove pivot points are a solid strategy? Are you consistently profitable via this strategy (sarcasm)?

Quote from SumJurk:

...I think that's why pivots, divergences, breakouts and pullbacks do work.

They work, because their are so many traders looking at the same thing. So, I would think, if you wanted to trade pullbacks as you're main strategy, look for the most common approach.

You want to be buying or selling when everyone else is, right?

In all fun, no offense or nothing personal......can you show us your performance record that pivot points, divergences, breakouts or pullbacks actually do work?

It's just a shame that you have associated MaxMin with vendors or bragging about incredible rewards...

Resulting in you demanding performance records when similar you have done the same via the quotes above.

Your impression is obviously different from mine. I have not once interpreted MaxMin trying to tell me or any other that I can make the incredible rewards that he has.

P.S. What if his rewards aren't financial?

What if he was able to accomplish something so incredible on his own that didn't reflect as a fat bank account?

Here's a hint...

Its not about winning...its about knowing who you are.

NihabaAshi

 

[MaxMin]

There is a very simple formula for filtering ideas and advice to discard the chaff and glean the wheat. But unfortunately not everyone is willing to do what it takes to obtain the wheat for themselves. Too many people rely on others to explicitly tell them what to think and do, not trusting in their own judgement. Or worse yet, they lack the reasoning ability to draw their own conclusions and form their own plans of action without someone telling them step by step what to do. They want someone else's wheat. And not only do they want it for free, they also want it prepared how they like it and delivered on a silver platter. But unfortunately, unlike the uniform nature of a commodity like wheat, the truth as it relates to your trading is unique for each person. The Shakespeare quote given in another thread is a great reminder for this particular topic:

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

William Shakespeare 1564 - 1616

Identifying your truth as it relates to your trading is very simple, yet it eludes many people who chase it around, never to actually catch it. The truth I'm talking about isn't concrete, like earth or water, or the dictionary definition, but rather more relative like warm or cool.

So what is the formula for discarding the chaff, and gleaning the wheat/truth? Those ideas that help improve your results are wheat/truth, while those that do not are chaff. Wheat is stored away, analyzed, processed, utilized, compounded and consumed. Chaff is discarded. (Chaff may be periodically reevaluated for wheat kernels, but the main focus of time and energy should be on the wheat at all times). Every sentient being on this message board has the capability to discern their own truth by using the preceding formula. But most do not, because testing ideas requires hard work, is tedious, boring and something the other guy *should* do for me. At least this seems to be a very common, though highly unprofitable point of view.

There is so much wheat out there that it really makes no sense to spend your time processing chaff, hoping you will uncover a kernel of wheat, when you could be spending your time working with the wheat you already have gleaned. If everyone would apply this same formula to all the things they read, hear or discuss on this site, there would be much less wasted tangential bandwidth and much more high-quality on-topic exchanges. But I digress...

Finding your wheat is a process that takes time, effort and even hard work. Nobody is going to hand it to you. In fact, nobody can hand it to you because their wheat may be your chaff and vice versa. This may seem as a letdown to some of you, but allow me to quote from someone who was an expert at gleaning wheat in his chosen profession, and then following through with the next (and possibly most important) step in the process, which is persistence, Thomas Edison:

Because I readily absorb ideas from every source - frequently starting where the last person left off - I never pick up an item without thinking of how I might improve it.

Genius is one per cent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration. Accordingly, a 'genius' is often merely a talented person who has done all of his or her homework.

The first requisite for success is to develop the ability to focus and apply your mental and physical energies to the problem at hand - without growing weary. Because such thinking is often difficult, there seems to be no limit to which some people will go to avoid the effort and labor that is associated with it....

I have far more respect for the person with a single idea who gets there than for the person with a thousand ideas who does nothing....

Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is often a step forward....

My principal business is giving commercial value to the brilliant - but misdirected - ideas of others....

Finally, on a different note, I probably should not have titled the thread "Winning in the EMinis" because that is not really what this thread is all about. The thread could have been named, "Being a Winner and trading the EMinis" but I thought the former had a catchier ring to it. In other words, this thread really isn't about the monetary rewards of EMini trading, but rather it is about being or becoming a winner while pursuing your livelihood, which may or may not be trading the EMinis. In fact, that is the idea I was trying to convey with the following quote, but I don't think it does a very good job:

This journal is less about what to do to be a winning trader than it is how to be a winning trader. I hope you will recognize the difference.

A better way to phrase the above is, "This journal is less about what to do to win at trading than it is how to be a winner who trades. I hope you will recognize the difference."

I apologize for any confusion this opening statement has created. So please help keep this thread on topic by focusing comments towards this end.

Thanks,

MaxMin

 

[SumJurk]

Quote from NihabaAshi:

Hi SumJurk,
















Can you prove pivot points are a solid strategy? Are you consistently profitable via this strategy (sarcasm)?

Everyone knows that pivot points are a viable strategy and that floor traders make money with them. I never said I did.



In all fun, no offense or nothing personal......can you show us your performance record that pivot points, divergences, breakouts or pullbacks actually do work?


I never claimed to be successfully trading these techniques, but it is common knowledge that some traders do.

It's just a shame that you have associated MaxMin with vendors or bragging about incredible rewards...

Resulting in you demanding performance records when similar you have done the same via the quotes above.


I never claimed to be making money, period

Your impression is obviously different from mine.
obviously...

P.S. What if his rewards aren't financial?

What if he was able to accomplish something so incredible on his own that didn't reflect as a fat bank account?

I don't have time to play word games. Anyone who reads that quote will assume he meant financial rewards.

 

[SumJurk]

Quote from MaxMin:

There is a very simple formula for filtering ideas and advice to discard the chaff and glean the wheat. But unfortunately not everyone is willing to do what it takes to obtain the wheat for themselves. Too many people rely on others to explicitly tell them what to think and do, not trusting in their own judgement. Or worse yet, they lack the reasoning ability to draw their own conclusions and form their own plans of action without someone telling them step by step what to do. They want someone else's wheat. And not only do they want it for free, they also want it prepared how they like it and delivered on a silver platter. But unfortunately, unlike the uniform nature of a commodity like wheat, the truth as it relates to your trading is unique for each person. The Shakespeare quote given in another thread is a great reminder for this particular topic:



Identifying your truth as it relates to your trading is very simple, yet it eludes many people who chase it around, never to actually catch it. The truth I'm talking about isn't concrete, like earth or water, or the dictionary definition, but rather more relative like warm or cool.

So what is the formula for discarding the chaff, and gleaning the wheat/truth? Those ideas that help improve your results are wheat/truth, while those that do not are chaff. Wheat is stored away, analyzed, processed, utilized, compounded and consumed. Chaff is discarded. (Chaff may be periodically reevaluated for wheat kernels, but the main focus of time and energy should be on the wheat at all times). Every sentient being on this message board has the capability to discern their own truth by using the preceding formula. But most do not, because testing ideas requires hard work, is tedious, boring and something the other guy *should* do for me. At least this seems to be a very common, though highly unprofitable point of view.

There is so much wheat out there that it really makes no sense to spend your time processing chaff, hoping you will uncover a kernel of wheat, when you could be spending your time working with the wheat you already have gleaned. If everyone would apply this same formula to all the things they read, hear or discuss on this site, there would be much less wasted tangential bandwidth and much more high-quality on-topic exchanges. But I digress...

Finding your wheat is a process that takes time, effort and even hard work. Nobody is going to hand it to you. In fact, nobody can hand it to you because their wheat may be your chaff and vice versa. This may seem as a letdown to some of you, but allow me to quote from someone who was an expert at gleaning wheat in his chosen profession, and then following through with the next (and possibly most important) step in the process, which is persistence, Thomas Edison:

That was a very eloquent way of saying "Everybody wants something for nothing"

But, I can assure you I'm not looking for any handouts. And, your Shaksperian quote was most impressive.

I'm looking thru glass...

 

[NihabaAshi]

Quote from MaxMin:

There is a very simple formula for filtering ideas and advice to discard the chaff and glean the wheat. But unfortunately not everyone is willing to do what it takes to obtain the wheat for themselves. Too many people rely on others to explicitly tell them what to think and do, not trusting in their own judgement. Or worse yet, they lack the reasoning ability to draw their own conclusions and form their own plans of action without someone telling them step by step what to do. They want someone else's wheat. And not only do they want it for free, they also want it prepared how they like it and delivered on a silver platter. But unfortunately, unlike the uniform nature of a commodity like wheat, the truth as it relates to your trading is unique for each person...

Identifying your truth as it relates to your trading is very simple, yet it eludes many people who chase it around, never to actually catch it. The truth I'm talking about isn't concrete, like earth or water, or the dictionary definition, but rather more relative like warm or cool.

So what is the formula for discarding the chaff, and gleaning the wheat/truth? Those ideas that help improve your results are wheat/truth, while those that do not are chaff. Wheat is stored away, analyzed, processed, utilized, compounded and consumed. Chaff is discarded. (Chaff may be periodically reevaluated for wheat kernels, but the main focus of time and energy should be on the wheat at all times). Every sentient being on this message board has the capability to discern their own truth by using the preceding formula. But most do not, because testing ideas requires hard work, is tedious, boring and something the other guy *should* do for me. At least this seems to be a very common, though highly unprofitable point of view.

There is so much wheat out there that it really makes no sense to spend your time processing chaff, hoping you will uncover a kernel of wheat, when you could be spending your time working with the wheat you already have gleaned. If everyone would apply this same formula to all the things they read, hear or discuss on this site, there would be much less wasted tangential bandwidth and much more high-quality on-topic exchanges. But I digress...

Finding your wheat is a process that takes time, effort and even hard work. Nobody is going to hand it to you. In fact, nobody can hand it to you because their wheat may be your chaff and vice versa. This may seem as a letdown to some of you, but allow me to quote from someone who was an expert at gleaning wheat in his chosen profession, and then following through with the next (and possibly most important) step in the process, which is persistence...

Finally, on a different note, I probably should not have titled the thread "Winning in the EMinis" because that is not really what this thread is all about. The thread could have been named, "Being a Winner and trading the EMinis" but I thought the former had a catchier ring to it.

In other words, this thread really isn't about the monetary rewards of EMini trading, but rather it is about being or becoming a winner while pursuing your livelihood, which may or may not be trading the EMinis.

In fact, that is the idea I was trying to convey with the following quote, but I don't think it does a very good job:

A better way to phrase the above is, "This journal is less about what to do to win at trading than it is how to be a winner who trades. I hope you will recognize the difference."

I apologize for any confusion this opening statement has created. So please help keep this thread on topic by focusing comments towards this end.

Thanks,

MaxMin

Hi MaxMin,

Once again, thanks for another well said message.

No apology needed...I understood what your trying to express from your first few posts.

Your following quote sums up my interpretation (impression) of your thread...

Quote from MaxMin:

...In other words, this thread really isn't about the monetary rewards of EMini trading, but rather it is about being or becoming a winner while pursuing your livelihood, which may or may not be trading the EMinis...MaxMin

NihabaAshi