TendFader, I agree that it does boil down to practice. But, If you read alot of Bio's by top traders you'll see that most of them had a mentor. Usually someone showed them the ropes on what to do/not do. But, they did take it to a new level. Also most of these Guru's who had no mentor's and were taxi cab drivers etc, who one day just started making bank (ie.Wade Cook). But, to copy the best does take being fluid and that can only come with practice.
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Winning in the EMinis
- Thread starter MaxMin
- Start date
Quote from Fast_Trader:
Max, I like your paragraph on Perfection since that is a problem I face everyday. I try to pin-point my entry to the last tick so I don't have to see even a tick of unrealized loss on my screen before it turns to profit. And I do miss some very nice trades because of this. Do you have any real solution to this problem? Did you once have this problem? If so, how did you get past it?
Fast Trader,
Making any type of major change in your trading requires more than just thinking about things in a different way, or making a decision to do things differently. If it were that easy then you would not have needed to ask your question. It sounds like from your description that you have programmed yourself to be very loss averse, to the point of making pulling the trigger difficult. Do you realize that you are letting the market decide if you get filled, rather than making a decisive decision to enter when your setup appears, and then just entering? I don't know why this is the case but you will need to figure this out for yourself through introspection to get to the root of the matter. Try to isolate your motives.
After you have a feel for what motivation is driving your action, ask yourself the following question: Which has cost you more, not entering trades where you had setups, or entering trades with setups that go against your position? You may have to observe your trades with this question in mind for a week or two to get a feel for what is really going on, and what is the true cost of this type of behavior. If you're anything like me, only the cold, hard facts will be enough to motivate you to change. And it is possible that you will find out that what you are doing is actually helpful, a form of self-preservation. If this turns out to be the case, you may need to take another look at refining your trade setups.
One other thought is that you really need to program yourself to accept your results. You need to somehow convince yourself that the market ticking against you a few (depending on your definition of a stop loss) ticks is ok. If you can't accept your results at each P&L level, you end up paradoxically holding onto those trades longer - being unable to make a decision, and from my own experience this can lead to large losses. It may take some convincing, but the subconscious can be reprogrammed through repetition and visualization. When I had this problem I visualized how the P&L would look on my screen, and then said "it's ok". I did this for various combinations of P&L.
Excellent quote from Lawrence Chan in the Gary Smith Challenge thread:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=27916
Detachment, flexibility, capability, confidence, patience, ingenuity. Excellent definition of survival, and worth repeating.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=27916
It is not the ability to extract the most amount of money from the markets you have traded that allow you to survive your next big draw down, it is your ability to swallow your ego and understand that what you know at this point in time may not be applicable tomorrow and you have the capability, confidence, and most important of all, patience, to figure out what will work tomorrow.
Detachment, flexibility, capability, confidence, patience, ingenuity. Excellent definition of survival, and worth repeating.
I like your postings MaxMin, even if they may be similar or identical to what others may have already said. Sometimes it takes a while before a message sinks in.
Please keep on posting away, and don't let the others who question the originality of your postings to deter you from posting more of your thoughts.
-- M
Please keep on posting away, and don't let the others who question the originality of your postings to deter you from posting more of your thoughts.
-- M
"Nothing you write or read will get you there.. "
Trend Fader seems to be implying that nothing about trading can be learned from outside sources, that it all has to come from within.
I completely disagree with this idea, and all you have to do is read the Schwager books to realize that some of the greatest traders in the world disagree with it as well.
Re: plagiarism - I'd appreciate it if those who accuse maxmin of plagiarism would provide examples. I haven't read the Douglas or Tharp books. I just want a citation instead of an unsupported accusation.
Can't believe that the flamers couldn't wait until maxmin posted a link to his new coaching site, personal advice available @ $500/hr.
Even if he does, someone may have been helped by reading through this thread and that's all that should matter. As tradersaavy said, if you don't like the content, change the channel. Surely there are other more pressing content problems on the Web that deserve your attention?
max401, you wrote
"Plenty of repeating, however, do you have any original thoughts?"
I would guess that the average retail trader who is either just starting out or having problems getting profitable isn't in need of 'original thoughts'. He or she needs to internalize some basic truths about trading. These truths have been repeated hundreds if not thousands of times by writers discussing trading, starting with Jesse Livermore (or perhaps someone before him). Wouldn't you agree?
Trend Fader seems to be implying that nothing about trading can be learned from outside sources, that it all has to come from within.
I completely disagree with this idea, and all you have to do is read the Schwager books to realize that some of the greatest traders in the world disagree with it as well.
Re: plagiarism - I'd appreciate it if those who accuse maxmin of plagiarism would provide examples. I haven't read the Douglas or Tharp books. I just want a citation instead of an unsupported accusation.
Can't believe that the flamers couldn't wait until maxmin posted a link to his new coaching site, personal advice available @ $500/hr.
Even if he does, someone may have been helped by reading through this thread and that's all that should matter. As tradersaavy said, if you don't like the content, change the channel. Surely there are other more pressing content problems on the Web that deserve your attention?
max401, you wrote
"Plenty of repeating, however, do you have any original thoughts?"
I would guess that the average retail trader who is either just starting out or having problems getting profitable isn't in need of 'original thoughts'. He or she needs to internalize some basic truths about trading. These truths have been repeated hundreds if not thousands of times by writers discussing trading, starting with Jesse Livermore (or perhaps someone before him). Wouldn't you agree?
Quote from traderNik:
"Nothing you write or read will get you there.. "
Trend Fader seems to be implying that nothing about trading can be learned from outside sources, that it all has to come from within.
I completely disagree with this idea, and all you have to do is read the Schwager books to realize that some of the greatest traders in the world disagree with it as well.
Totally false. Many things about trading can be learned from reading and outside sources... but non of them will make u a great trader.
I read all of Schwager's books and not once did I read one of the Market Wizard's say.. I started to make money after I read this... or I started to make $ after I learned this new strategy or technique.. or got a mentorship from XYZ.
What I did read was that the market wizards all learned the art of trading and the fundementals of sound trading from outside sources.. but what actually made them $ was from within..
For example.. Tudor Jones was not a great trader simply because Tullis was his mentor... Seykota or Dennis were not super traders because they read the works of Donchian.. There are thousands of traders that new about Donchian and all the other techniques that were made known to these super traders.. WHat made them successful is because they simply had the talent to trade from within.
When Seykota was asked whether or not it pays for someone to trade.. he said u are better off finding a great trader and giving him your money.. because he said the best traders simply have a talent or skill that the poor traders dont have.
When Dennis ran his turtles experiment.. What happened? Only a few actually made serious money and the majority washed out. Where are those traders today? Goto turtletraders website and u will see. Only a small few actually ended up making it.
All I am saying is that reading Trading in the Zone, Van Tharp, etc... is adequately suffice for your typical savy trader on psychological development.. the real $ made will come from within.
Its how one applies everything involved to trading.. which determines if they will actually succeed.
--MIKE
Fader, you wrote,
"When Dennis ran his turtles experiment.. What happened? Only a few actually made serious money and the majority washed out. Where are those traders today? Goto turtletraders website and u will see. Only a small few actually ended up making it."
True enough, but those few were taught, right?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree - I would say that great trading can be taught - you would probably say that the most teaching can do is to keep you from blowing out until you can figure out for yourself how to become a great trader.
For the record - I think that success in trading is elusive for the same reason that weight loss is an elusive goal for some people - they know exactly what needs to be done, but they just can't impose the self-discipline required to achieve the goal (this is taken from one of the New Market Wizards interviews, can't remember which one). This is probably why I think that 'real success' in trading has less to do with some innate tendency or talent that only certain people have, and more to do with programming that can be broken. And btw, I usually come down on the nature side in the nature/nurture debate - I assume you do too.
Anyway, Fader, I wish you the best in your trading.
"When Dennis ran his turtles experiment.. What happened? Only a few actually made serious money and the majority washed out. Where are those traders today? Goto turtletraders website and u will see. Only a small few actually ended up making it."
True enough, but those few were taught, right?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree - I would say that great trading can be taught - you would probably say that the most teaching can do is to keep you from blowing out until you can figure out for yourself how to become a great trader.
For the record - I think that success in trading is elusive for the same reason that weight loss is an elusive goal for some people - they know exactly what needs to be done, but they just can't impose the self-discipline required to achieve the goal (this is taken from one of the New Market Wizards interviews, can't remember which one). This is probably why I think that 'real success' in trading has less to do with some innate tendency or talent that only certain people have, and more to do with programming that can be broken. And btw, I usually come down on the nature side in the nature/nurture debate - I assume you do too.
Anyway, Fader, I wish you the best in your trading.
Quote from traderNik:
Fader, you wrote,
"When Dennis ran his turtles experiment.. What happened? Only a few actually made serious money and the majority washed out. Where are those traders today? Goto turtletraders website and u will see. Only a small few actually ended up making it."
True enough, but those few were taught, right?
.
Nick we are having a good discussion.
The few turtles that made it.. were not necessarily successful because they were simply taught. There was another element to success that they possesed that the others didnt.
What is this secret element? Its probably a compilation of thousands of different psychological, mental and physical abilities that they have alligned in the proper order to suceed. Where each trader would be stronger or weaker in certain areas.. but at the end it will balance out enough to make them successful.
So if someone asks what do I need to succeed in order to trade... the answer can never be published or mentored. Most of it comes from natural ablility and tendencies. Publish a simple trading technique that has a positive edge in the NY times. I bet the ones that actually make $ are the ones that have the proper mental, psychological and physical skills, talent and tendencies of a successful trader. If you dont have this to begin with reading all the books under the sun is not going to help. Like I said from the start.. most of it comes from within. Self exploration, practice, raw talent, adaptability, honesty of oneself, decision making skills, and probably another thousand attributes.
Another question is.. can all this be taught or can someone learn these attributes and mold themselves.. the answer of course is yes.. but in reality its more than likely not going to happen. The people that do have this gift w/o needing to improve or change themselves as much as others are at a clear and significant advantage over the other average traders. This breed of person in sports is known as the phenom... like Tiger, Jordan, etc.
--MIKE
Quote from traderNik:
Fader, you wrote,
For the record - I think that success in trading is elusive for the same reason that weight loss is an elusive goal for some people - they know exactly what needs to be done, but they just can't impose the self-discipline required to achieve the goal (this is taken from one of the New Market Wizards interviews, can't remember which one). This is probably why I think that 'real success' in trading has less to do with some innate tendency or talent that only certain people have, and more to do with programming that can be broken. And btw, I usually come down on the nature side in the nature/nurture debate - I assume you do too.
Good point about weight loss. Take all the people that are in great shape. A lot of it probably to do with better genetic health than others.. which is simply hereditary and can never really be altered naturally... This doesnt mean that they can never become fit.. but they will defitantely have to struggle more than others. Similarly some traders are just born with the proper genetic balance and make up of what it takes to succeed... huge edge which most dont possess ( just like most in US are out of shape)
Genetics aside.. attributes for fitness include... discipline, self awareness, motivation, consistency, etc, etc,..
W/o those attributes lined up properly no matter what diet they use.. or exercise machine gizmo they buy off TV.. they will not achive fitness. It will end up coming from within.
--MIKE