Will This Issue Decide the Mid-Term Elections?

[Pabst]

Interesting take. Certainly there's those who could work and instead reside on the government dole. Are there as many in the fit to work but choose welfare camp as there are immigrants toiling at low-wage jobs? I doubt it.

A few things, AAA. Firstly, the thirty years since Roe v. Wade has really caused a reduction in American population growth. In the great Northeastern metropolitan areas there's very little in the way of poverty level whites. That leaves blacks as the prime candidates for the lowest of low wage: housekeeping, kitchen/janitorial help, ect. It's just not realistic to think Americans, no matter what socioeconomic class, are going to work those type jobs. Hence the Mexicans, Poles, Haitians and Bosnians.

It takes a labor Army to satisfy the needs of todays yuppie bourgeois. Maids, au-pairs, gardeners, parking garage attendants, towelboys at the club(s), busboys, chicks working the counter at Starbux. My IT guy is the only one making nice $ and he's often the only one who's white-Anglo. When economists talk about "consumer driven" they're not just referring to the sale of goods, we're also talking JOBS. One may ignorantly lambaste "tax cuts for the rich" but those upwardly mobile are employing zillions of lesser folk.

Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

I keep hearing they do work no one else will do, and my question is, who did that work before we were inundated with illegals? I know from personal experience that people used to do their own lawn work or force their kids to do it or hire neighborhood kids. I realize the last option is no longer viable because most of the middle class and up kids are too weak and feminized to do any manual labor, but the idea we must have illegals to function is insulting.

It's not that they do work "no one else will do", it's that no one else will do it for the wages they are paying. Meanwhile we have armies of welfare recipients who are paid to sit around their government subsidized apartment and play video games and take drugs all day, when they aren't protesting about how poorly they are being treated.

Cut welfare and there will be plenty of people to do those jobs.

 

[achilles28]

Quote from Pabst:

It's just not realistic to think Americans, no matter what socioeconomic class, are going to work those type jobs. Hence the Mexicans, Poles, Haitians and Bosnians.

You've bought the propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Go read some basic economics.

Illegals out = wages up.


Last time I checked, there were plenty of minorities working blue collar jobs because the pay JUSTIFIED it.

The supposed 'labor army' needed to satisfy the whims of American yuppies everywhere, is more bs.

Theres a critical distinction here you're missing. Yuppies don't 'need' these services. Its just they can *afford them* - at slave wages.

Watch how many yuppies go without when they can't pay Pablo the poolboy 4 dollars an hour to clean the scum off their deck.

The horror!!

 

[sulong]

Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

I keep hearing they do work no one else will do, and my question is, who did that work before we were inundated with illegals? I know from personal experience that people used to do their own lawn work or force their kids to do it or hire neighborhood kids. I realize the last option is no longer viable because most of the middle class and up kids are too weak and feminized to do any manual labor, but the idea we must have illegals to function is insulting.

It's not that they do work "no one else will do", it's that no one else will do it for the wages they are paying. Meanwhile we have armies of welfare recipients who are paid to sit around their government subsidized apartment and play video games and take drugs all day, when they aren't protesting about how poorly they are being treated.

Cut welfare and there will be plenty of people to do those jobs.

TriA,
I see we have some common ground here. For the most part I agree with you.
I would add to it by saying the that the remedy is the same as the cause. “Economics”.
If there were a maximum wage for illegals, say $.50 hr, and some enforcement of the max. wage, the problem would heal its self.

 

[Pabst]

Why should someone have go without those workers? I'm not interested in paying $8 for a taco. As it is I pay my Peruvian maid $12.50 an hour. I'm partly generous but the reality is that's the market rate in Miami. So are you suggesting I either find a native-American at a higher rate than $12.50 or do the work myself? I don't think so. I'm THRILLED that someone who was living in abject poverty is able to work for me and my neighbors and make a living wage. I believe in free markets to trade and I believe in the freedom for labor and capital to travel. That means I've no gripe if CSCO sends jobs to India and I've no gripe if my pool designer was born in Cuba. By the same token I don't want anyone beefing if I choose to short Brazilian bonds as part of my livelihood.

Quote from achilles28:

You've bought the propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Go read some basic economics.

Illegals out = wages up.


Last time I checked, there were plenty of minorities working blue collar jobs because the pay JUSTIFIED it.

The supposed 'labor army' needed to satisfy the whims of American yuppies everywhere, is more bs.

Theres a critical distinction here you're missing. Yuppies don't 'need' these services. Its just they can *afford them* - at slave wages.

Watch how many yuppies go without when they can't pay Pablo the poolboy 4 dollars an hour to clean the scum off their deck.

The horror!!

 

[maxpi]

Lots of these immigrants know what it is about to be worried about survival, they will work and be satisfied at a low wage. A family member ran a little low tech 20 man shop in the Los Angeles area, he did it all with El Salvador immigrants, legal ones. That worked real well for him, eventually he hired a people-person guy away from a restaurant to run the place and he retired at age 40. I will guarantee you, he could not do that with the locals as workers, they would learn a few skills and go somewhere else, they would hassle him, threaten lawsuits, etc.

Neither political party is going to do anything about illegal immigration much, immigration is good for the economy, pure and simple. They all need gasoline, places to live and shoes and food. I am in Southern California and I simply learned to speak Spanish. It is the simplest language on the planet next to esperanto. These folks can be the best neighbors you ever had if they trust you a little.

On the off chance our "leadership" can put together some reform that includes controlled borders, personally I hope they allow lots of Spanish speaking immigrants in, they are generally good Catholics, good citizens, and good for the economy. So what if the "White" culture became so effete that they don't have enough children to replace themselves?? How is that a government problem??

Security, so far, has consisted of taking the war to the enemy, always a good strategy in my book. In the long run we might have to tighten up the borders but so far so good, the government will not act on that until we are attacked again, that is for certain, they need crises to justify themselves and between crises they don't do shit, typically. Besides, if we tighten up the borders and restrict international trade because of fear of terrorists, they have an economic victory over us. All these complaints about the cost of the war without any assessment of the cost of not having the war, what bullshit. I'm thinking these NeoCons will overspend on the stuff they want to spend on and then cut back on the stuff they don't want to spend on, exactly what the Democrats did for decades. I think those welfare rolls can be shrunk down to 5% of what they are now if the folks have a choice between work or hunger. This is a free country, everybody should have that choice to make.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Pabst:

Why should someone have go without those workers?
Cause the are breaking the law, silly. Your ancestors did not want to go without slaves either. They disgraced themselves then, you're disgracing yourself now.

I'm not interested in paying $8 for a taco.
Who gives a shit what you're interested in, your slavery supporting ancestors justified it [slavery] by not willing to pay more for bread and tobacco.

So are you suggesting I either find a native-American at a higher rate than $12.50 or do the work myself?
Absolutely. And because you will not have an unlimited supply of foreign competition on the labor market you'll be able to charge your employer more as well.

I'm THRILLED that someone who was living in abject poverty is able to work for me and my neighbors
Move to Peru and pay them in Peru whatever they charge. There are laws, rules and the minimum wage in this country.

I believe in free markets to trade and I believe in the freedom for labor and capital to travel.
Too bad you're confusing free markets with free borders, especially when borders are "free" in only one direction. When Peruvian companies start hiring american workers and pay them american wages your point may become valid, before that it's total nonsense.

 

[drsteph]

I'm as hard core right wing as AAA, but here we diverge.

First off, on a purely historic and national history basis, we are a nation of immigrants. Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry. Doesn't that mean anything to anyone here? I don't want to give the baby away with the bathwater, but on average, these people work hard and if they can be made good US citizens, so much the better for all of us.

Second, as I have said time and time again, its about the demographics. If you don't have new grist for the mill, you can't maintain the pyramid. American birth rates barely exceed replacement rates. With our social security and medicare entitlement systems, who will pay?. I'd rather it is immigrant families who are working their way up the ladder than I, trying to preserve what I have. Isn't that a fair trade?

Third, don't underestimate the importance of human capital. People do things. They build bridges, repair roads, serve in the armed forces, buy real estate, and pay taxes. No people=no country=no political importance. Everyone in Monaco might be a millionaire, but do they have anything to say on the stage of world affairs? No. And if France decided to annex them completely, they couldn't even say boo.

Illegal immigrants once legal pay taxes, have children, and contribute to the american dream. Avoiding stupid laws criminalizing growth should be a priority for this country.

And also AAA - the hispanic vote is probably the most important swing vote for the republicans in history. These religious, hard working, and family oriented individuals are probably truer to the American ideal than many of the home-born freeloaders who expect the nanny state to provide for them out of sloth. And therefore, more likely to vote republican even when doing so may not be in their own personal or political best interests.

For those of us who are irish or german, how were our descendants any different? Really. AAA, as a fellow conservative, I am disappointed in you. When did you forget what the GOP originally stood for?

 

[achilles28]

Quote from Pabst:

Why should someone have go without those workers? I'm not interested in paying $8 for a taco. As it is I pay my Peruvian maid $12.50 an hour. So are you suggesting I either find a native-American at a higher rate than $12.50 or do the work myself? I don't think so.

Its your right to advocate the importation of slave labor to subsidize an unaffordable standard of living. No doubt about it.

But theres an ugly side to that seductive equation you spin as only 'win-win' - illegals are a direct threat to the American middle class.

Illegals drive the wages of the middle class down - eroding the wealth of average Americans.

From the perspective of financial gain, its great. Who wouldn't like to pay Rosetta peanuts to clean their toilet?

But getting the most bang for your buck ignores the long term social consequences to the country as whole.


Wealth is power and freedom.

When you take that wealth away from the middle class and it put it in the pockets of an esoteric elite, you are in essence creating a plutocracy instead of maintaining a representative one.

When the balance of power predominantly shifts from the hands of many (the middle class) to the hands of the few (the ruling class), the nations fate is put in grave jeopardy; making it far easier for the ruling class to manipulate and sell the American public on self serving agendas that are not only bad for the average American, but bad for the entire nation.

This is already happening right now.



Free trade. Same thing. Unrestricted free trade benefits consumers and developed nations - short term.

What economics textbooks DON'T teach you: unrestricted free trade decimates a developed nations middle class by EXPORTING their entire manufacturing sector overseas. And a big chunk of their service sector (all middle class jobs.)

But thats really irrelevant since the ultimate objective of capital mobility is the maximization of profits and not some willy nilly concept like the long term social integrity of a nation. Right?

 

[achilles28]

Quote from maxpi:

immigration is good for the economy, pure and simple.

Illegals benefit the upperclass at the expense of destroying the middle class and the economic base of the country.

Quote from maxpi:

These folks can be the best neighbors you ever had if they trust you a little.

Thats not the point.

The primary concern is the southern border is wide open for all the Mohammed Attas and Al Zarkowis to ferry terrorists and weapons across, if they so choose.

Telling me a Mexican with a third grade education can figure this out but a terrorist with an electrical engineering degree cant, is total nonsense.


The second problem is that these nice, sweet, decent people are taking American jobs and lending to the destruction of the American middle class - a longstanding economic bulwark against a plutocratic takeover of the country.

Quote from maxpi:

So what if the "White" culture became so effete that they don't have enough children to replace themselves??

One has nothing to do with the other. Far MORE illegals immigrate here than whats needed to maintain or grow Americas population.

Besides the fact mass immigration dilutes a countries social fabric faster than those immigrants can be rightly assimilated, population decline can be easily overcome by incentivizing citizens to have children.

Quote from maxpi:

Security, so far, has consisted of taking the war to the enemy, always a good strategy in my book.

Which has incidentally created more terrorists than its killed - according to a recent Pentagon report.

Disregarding that, leaving the backdoor wide open during a time when terrorists seek to attack us on our own soil with WMDS is a good idea????

It appears you've been brainwashed well. Good job.

Quote from maxpi:

In the long run we might have to tighten up the borders but so far so good

'Might'??? You support preemptive war to thwart future attacks. But won't apply that same attitude of pragmatic prevention to shut down the most accessible underground gateway into the country: the border?

Absolute idiocy.

Quote from maxpi:

the government will not act on that until we are attacked again, that is for certain, they need crises to justify themselves

We already had one. The attacks on sept 11th. Remember?

Quote from maxpi:

Besides, if we tighten up the borders and restrict international trade because of fear of terrorists, they have an economic victory over us.

One has nothing to do with the other.

Freight containers and cargo ships don't meander their way across the deserted rio grande alongside illegal 'migrants'.

Freight enters through the ascribed installations which are totally unrelated to border areas in dire need of protection.

 

[Sam123]

I wonder what they were thinking when they told their Hispanic student-zombies to run around with Mexican flags and make the stupidest statements to the media. Just like the French “riots” and Cartoon Jihad: This is another well-organized political rally to generate appeasement, only to backfire and cause more people to take a hard line against them and their causes.