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"Why won't God heal amputees?"
- Thread starter lkh
- Start date
exucse me. this is trading board. people should somehow beQuote from lkh:
So far in this thread we have shown that God does not answer prayer and that religion is nothing more than superstition. Even so i still get believers who say "even if it isn't true religion is a moral guide that keeps mans evil tenancies in check".
If this were true we should be able to see it in the statistics. Christians should be more moral as a group. It just so happens that there is data available. The US prison system keeps records of religious affiliation of the inmates. Guess which group is the worst?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Qb56uFD2I
able to understand the basics of statistics. if you do not show
the deviation to overall population these figures are definitely
NOT indicating ANY tendency of any religion towards crime. this
is really stupid. and to post it and not see it is not really brilliant
either.
oh lord ...
What is Transcendental?
"(a)God is an Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought â in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable."
From the Ancient Wisdom FAQ
http://www.lulu.com/content/510962
"(a)God is an Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought â in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable."
From the Ancient Wisdom FAQ
http://www.lulu.com/content/510962
Quote from ddunbar:
As it says, many are called few are chosen.
Or...
Take the parable of the soils for instance. 4 seeds, only one went on to bear fruit.
Not saying Christians are to be "perfect." Just saying that the doctrines many blindly embrace are anything but Christian.
Except, for the parable to have a more accurate mathematical reflection, it would be something like 400 seeds, with only one bearing fruit... or some other shockingly lopsided number. If the holy ghost is a selective fellow, 25% of candidates seems reasonable; one quarter of one percent does not. (Unless you're a gnostic.)
I respect your measured responses to my occasionally acerbic jabs.
The problem with the typical defenses of religion, though, is that they are generally non-falsifiable.
That is to say, the old standbys can parry away virtually every case. No matter how much venality or banality or insanity is pointed out, it can all be written off somehow.
This isn't necessarily a problem for the person doing the explaining. But it is a problem for those doing the listening.
(And to be fair, the non-falsifiable dilemma is not restricted to religious debate.)
This is why I suggest that arguments should be vetted based on their quality, as well as their logical possibility. Plenty of idiotic things are conceivable. Plenty of loopy possibilities might be true, but that doesn't mean they are true.
We tend to forget about quality when we get into the minutia of what is conceivable and what isn't. For example, even if all the objections can be waved off, one could argue that God runs a pretty crappy railroad.
If you were the divine creator, and you elected to share your divine truth with men, would you be happy to see it hijacked by the likes of Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson? Would you stand by while idiots and fools disparaged your name at every turn, dragging it through the mud and worse?
Would you encourage the proliferation of awful sermons in your name? Would you happily accept praises and worship songs with all the tact and taste of a dayglo Elvis painting?
As for the book you delivered... would you write it in such a way as to deliberately sow confusion far and wide? Would you make everything about it as muddled as it can possibly be, so that every theological topic under the sun becomes a matter of heated debate?
Would you hold an irrational grudge against intelligent people... punishing them for the brains that you bestowed? Would you put easter eggs in the fossil record to intentionally throw them off track? Would you punish commitment to logical rigor with a one way ticket to hell?
Would you set up an eternal reward system that doesn't actually reward merit... but pays off cowardice and complacency all the time?
What about that SMITE key on your keyboard? Would you really never hit it with gusto? You wouldn't at least knock Benny Hinn's jet out of the sky as he flies it under your nose?
And what about the ridiculous inconsistency of miracles? On the one hand you can't let your power be known because that would ruin the test... but on the other hand you supposedly dole out miraculous happenings like crackerjacks, and the more fervent of your followers see iron-clad evidence of your existence every week. How does this all work?
Okay, enough of that. There is plenty more that can be said... the point is that, apart from what is conceivable and what can be waved away, there are real quality issues at stake.
Those who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster can wave away all the standard objections too. The Church of the FSM in fact argues that their views are just as believable, conceivable and legitimate as those of any other religion. And they have a point, do they not?
Damn, archimedes. You are one of the few people who can write lengthy posts that are worth reading.
Quote from ddunbar:
As it says, many are called few are chosen.
Or...
Take the parable of the soils for instance. 4 seeds, only one went on to bear fruit.
Not saying Christians are to be "perfect." Just saying that the doctrines many blindly embrace are anything but Christian.
How Christian is it to support or endorse warfare? Jesus's Sermon on the Mount would instantly expose the hypocrisy of many so called Christians today.
True christians. This is something i hear a lot. Using what the largest bible believing church in my state believes and preaches i did some rough calculations.
World population 6.4 billion. Christians 2 billion. So we have 4.4 billion of the world going to hell. but wait. They constantly say most christians are going to hell so lets break it down further.
Of the 2 billion christians we have:
1 billion Catholics: all going to hell. Here is a paragraph from something written by a church leader to show what they think of catholics.
"One out of every four people in America belongs to the largest cult in the world â and that cult is the Roman Catholic Church. Not knowing the righteous that comes from God, Roman Catholics have sought to establish their own, rejecting the finished work on the cross. Oh, for just one Pastor in the region to sound the alarm. Read the papers. Roman Catholics are dying every day and will spend an eternity in the lake of fire because they have followed a way that seems right to them -- but in the end it leads to death. Are you the Pastor who will sound the alarm?"
73 million Anglicans: Going to hell because they have strayed from the bible teachings and elected a gay leader.
Baptists: they are mostly ok
70 million Methodists: Going to hell because they have turned liberal and are not preaching the bible anymore.They mostly just tickle peoples ears.
14 million Jehovah witnesses:Going to hell because they are considered a cult.
12 million Adventists: Going to hell also considered a cult.
11 million Later day saints: Going to hell also considered a cult.
1.5 million New thought(Unity,christian science ect.):Going to hell. Dont preach the bible.
Some of the others i am not sure about but am positive some have problems.
A little rough math and we have at least 5 billion 581.5 million people going to hell out of a world population of 6.4 billion.
One would think an all powerful God could come up with a clearer message of what it takes to join the club.
http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html
All these people going to hell is certainly going to heat up the real estate market down there, eh? I'm guessing those waterfront properties, near that lake of fire you referred to, will be the first to go. That's where the smart money is. And I suppose it goes without saying that the latecomers will be burned.
Quote from lkh:
One would think an all powerful God could come up with a clearer message of what it takes to join the club.
http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html
LOL. The bible is fairly clear enough as to what it takes to get in. Some just weren't satisfied with it so they added on for various reasons. many of those reasons amount to vanity and power grabs.
Whether you believe in God or not is not wholly important to this particular discussion. It's academic. Read the bible then study all the various sects doctrines and it becomes easier to see where each group veers off to the point of nullifying the original message.
Anyway, given the sheer number of people theoretically going to hell, it pays to examine the truth of religion and the existence or non-existence of a God.
But to use the theoretical number of people going to hell as some sort of discredit is a poor way to go about disproving the existence of God. Yes, I know, you might think God is all-loving. But you will find no such sentiment in the Bible. In fact you'll find the God of the bible to be quite exclusionary.
It's simple really. If your basis for adherring to any religion is whether or not the religion's God can be proven to exist, then you should be quite content to not follow any religion. No argument is going to have the same force or veracity as that one. Then it's a simple matter of examining the texts for internal logical consistency. But you have to have a firm and at least academic grasp of the text to do so properly. Then you can examine the adherrents of a religion to see how faithfully they follow their religion. It's pretty easy to see that many so called Christians are not following the words of their most revered figure. Matter of fact, they're not even esteeming them anymore. It would be one thing to esteem the words but openly admit that they are having trouble putting them in practice. But it's quite another to brazenly ignore them or justify the opposite yet term yourself a Christian.
I'm saying all this because after reading ~ 80% of your posts, from my estimation, your dissillusionment with Christianity stems from your experiences with its adherrents and not with the text of Christianity itself. I'm not saying that if you actually took the time to understand the text that you'd believe or still believe. I'm just pointing out that many of your proofs, some good, some really bad, are mostly based on speculative comparisions and specious arguments.
You've got one of the greatest arguments against religion but you just don't seem to know how to run with it. That argument being, proof of God. Any god.
So you know exactly what the Bible means, preacher?
Let me suggest to you that the Bible is a symbolic text written on three esoteric levels and there are only a handful of people on earth who fully understand it, (and no I am not one of them)
I am smart enough to know my limitations and most dummies do not and think they just know it.....
but guess what - nobody knows who is in and who is out and least of the big mouthed US based dummies who preach on TV...
my guess that they are getting some fancy karma for their actions......
Let me suggest to you that the Bible is a symbolic text written on three esoteric levels and there are only a handful of people on earth who fully understand it, (and no I am not one of them)
I am smart enough to know my limitations and most dummies do not and think they just know it.....
but guess what - nobody knows who is in and who is out and least of the big mouthed US based dummies who preach on TV...
my guess that they are getting some fancy karma for their actions......
Quote from ddunbar:
LOL. The bible is fairly clear enough as to what it takes to get in. Some just weren't satisfied with it so they added on for various reasons. many of those reasons amount to vanity and power grabs. ....
rest of nonsense deleted
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