"Why won't God heal amputees?"

[I am...]

Quote from jem:

Why dont you tell me about time before the big bang.

Now if by my defintion of God which can be supported by biblical vs is that that God is outside of time why dont you tell me how he is still governed by newtonian physics.

Right. He's not at all governed by time. The real is not governed by an illusion. At this time, I am in charge of the illusion of time. You have time to forgive. When all is forgiven, time will end, for it's purpose no longer will exist. Then you will see that there was nothing to forgive, for the reason for time's seeming existence never existed. The universe will simply disappear. Forgiveness shortens time for you and all. Miracles shorten time. Forgiveness is a kind of miracle. That is why I said, when I was questioned about how I healed a cripple, "Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you', or, 'Rise up and walk'?". Sins are seriously insane notions that call for healing. When the mind is healed, the body heals. The body heals because both space and time are relative, and subject to forgiveness and healing.

The thing to remember is that you would not be experiencing space and time were it not for seriously insane notions about separation and guilt. These preceded the "Big Bang", which was a projection of a mind that thought it needed to run and hide from a God who would punish it. As such notions persist, time and space persist. They are literally the basis - the floor - for all seemingly natural laws, such as gravity. The mind IS over matter, and when you think matter is all that matters, time and space persist. Time and space warp when you begin to overlook what you think is real, such as separation and guilt, and see the innocence beyond.

I have just told you the parable of the Prodigal Son in other words. Do not underestimate the power in the mind of a Son of God, prodigal or not! Else you can be utterly self-decieved. Utterly, but not totally. The mind of the Prodigal Son made - not created - the Big Bang and all its effects. The universe is a hide out, a place to go that seems separate. But because it was "made" and not real, it does not truly exist, and is powerless in the face of Truth.

The Holy Spirit was slipped into the "pocket" of the Prodigal Son before he left as a gift to guide him back Home. Everyone has this gift equally embedded in their right mind. It is God's Answer to the ego that misguides you. The ego is an illusion, with a seeming life of it's own. It would perpetuate time and space forever given half a chance. It would define all the universe as "real" and make itself god of all "creation". Pain is it's "proof" of the reality of its creation, and "death" is it's triumph over the God of Life. Thus sits the ego on the throne of "god", deliberately sabotaging His plan for salvation.

As a "Christian" then, you were taught to be wary of deceivers. Yet, you do not recognize yet the scope of the deception. When you realize it is merely Self-deception, you can begin to negotiate your way back Home. For the mind that made this "universe" is yours, and you are one with it. Temptation is anything that would convince you your body is real, that you are limited, separated, and subject to punishment by outside forces for guilt imagined as real. Brother, this is hell. Come back Home now, and deliver yourself from "evil".

Peace,

Jesus

 

[jem]

Quote from archimedes:

The verses I cited were in reference to Calvinism and God's omnipotence, i.e. why the Calvinist interpretation of God's omnipotence, and thus of Christianity on the whole, is the most biblically and philosophically consistent. Those who attempt to absolve God of ultimate responsibility for hell are the ones who 'choke' on said verses.

The problems with Christianity are myriad, and certainly not approximated by a few verses. You asked me why I considered Calvinism a logical proxy for Christianity overall; I answered you in that context.

If you ask why I no longer believe Christianity is true, that is a much broader question... and one that cannot be answered in a single reply, because the question is simply too large.

I have, however, addressed the question in many different ways, via multiple angles, on this very thread, as have lkh and stu and others. In fact answering the broad question of why Christianity is not true seems to be a central thrust of this thread's existence in the first place.

Ask and ye shall receive; knock and the door shall be opened unto you. There are many points to ponder here as to why Christianity is a false path. There is also a big difference between saying "I don't see your argument" and actually seeking to uncover and understand the opposition's argument.

One is little more than posturing; after all, it is the easiest thing in the world not to see. All you have to do is put your hands over your eyes. The other route, of genuinely putting one's faith to the test in pursuit of truth, requires seeking out the arguments of the opposition and genuinely contemplating them, rather than approaching hostile viewpoints from a wholly defensive shoot-em-up perspective.

And as long as I'm typing yet another long post on this thread, here's a little pet peeve of mine: the concept of "hard heartedness" as bandied about by Maverick1 and others.

What is hard heartedness, really, other than an obstinate refusal to listen to inner reason? What other definition makes sense? The religious definition of hard heartedness implies that the truth is there, available to the non-believer, and that the non-believer is obstinate in his / her refusal to embrace it.

But who is being obstinate here, now, on this thread?

If anything those with a willingness to question, to challenge assumptions no matter how much it hurts, are the ones with a "soft heart" for truth.

In contrast, those who will unthinkingly defend a dogma to their last breath, without considering the logical merits of their defense; those who would not change their minds in the face of any evidence whatsoever; those who pretend not to see because they haven't looked -- these are the truly "hard hearted" in my opinion. They are the ones who show remarkable obstinacy.

Is it the thinking nonbeliever's fault that the philosophical and material evidence is overwhelmingly against Christianity? What happens when the inner voice whispers, nay shouts, that there is a better way?

Is it not the ultimate act of soft heartedness to commit to pursuit of truth no matter what, to commit to accepting truth no matter the consequences? I fear many Christians would rather go down to the death defending a false God than commit to truth at all costs... if they could fathom what such a commitment actually meant.

Unvarnished pursuit of truth was my shining ideal during all my religious days; it is still my shining ideal here and now. The only addiction I have is addiction to clarity. Who can genuinely call me "hard hearted" in light of this?

I agree as liberals reach for the "phobe" or hater reply - Christians are frequently too quick (imo) to toss out the hard heartedness deal. I do not think the label is fairly applied to you, but that is just my opinion.

Next, I would be more interested in drawing out your previous Calvinistic beliefs but I suspect I already know most of them. I also know the other sides arguments which are also taken from bible verses. And I also know Catholic beliefs which I in my opinion are well considered and not necesary opposed to some Calvinistic type thoughts. In fact while I do not always agree with the Catholic Chruch - I can say that on all these issues they are well lawyered up, very well researched, and virtually their entire Catechism is ground in the bible - not just tradition. Which comes a surprised to many Catholics and born agains.

If you wish to elaborate on some of your prinicpal reasons why Christianity is wrong - I would be happy to read it.

But I certainly do not think that any mature Christian chruch has trouble accepting the view that God is a tough task master. The God of the Old testament is tough. He wanted the world to know he is the one true God - by the fact that he is a God of his word and you could know him by the fact he keeps his promises.

 

[jem]

Quote from I am...:

Right. He's not at all governed by time. The real is not governed by an illusion. At this time, I am in charge of the illusion of time. You have time to forgive. When all is forgiven, time will end, for it's purpose no longer will exist. Then you will see that there was nothing to forgive, for the reason for time's seeming existence never existed. The universe will simply disappear. Forgiveness shortens time for you and all. Miracles shorten time. Forgiveness is a kind of miracle. That is why I said, when I was questioned about how I healed a cripple, "Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you', or, 'Rise up and walk'?". Sins are seriously insane notions that call for healing. When the mind is healed, the body heals. The body heals because both space and time are relative, and subject to forgiveness and healing.

The thing to remember is that you would not be experiencing space and time were it not for seriously insane notions about separation and guilt. These preceded the "Big Bang", which was a projection of a mind that thought it needed to run and hide from a God who would punish it. As such notions persist, time and space persist. They are literally the basis - the floor - for all seemingly natural laws, such as gravity. The mind IS over matter, and when you think matter is all that matters, time and space persist. Time and space warp when you begin to overlook what you think is real, such as separation and guilt, and see the innocence beyond.

I have just told you the parable of the Prodigal Son in other words. Do not underestimate the power in the mind of a Son of God, prodigal or not! Else you can be utterly self-decieved. Utterly, but not totally. The mind of the Prodigal Son made - not created - the Big Bang and all its effects. The universe is a hide out, a place to go that seems separate. But because it was "made" and not real, it does not truly exist, and is powerless in the face of Truth.

The Holy Spirit was slipped into the "pocket" of the Prodigal Son before he left as a gift to guide him back Home. Everyone has this gift equally embedded in their right mind. It is God's Answer to the ego that misguides you. The ego is an illusion, with a seeming life of it's own. It would perpetuate time and space forever given half a chance. It would define all the universe as "real" and make itself god of all "creation". Pain is it's "proof" of the reality of its creation, and "death" is it's triumph over the God of Life. Thus sits the ego on the throne of "god", deliberately sabotaging His plan for salvation.

As a "Christian" then, you were taught to be wary of deceivers. Yet, you do not recognize yet the scope of the deception. When you realize it is merely Self-deception, you can begin to negotiate your way back Home. For the mind that made this "universe" is yours, and you are one with it. Temptation is anything that would convince you your body is real, that you are limited, separated, and subject to punishment by outside forces for guilt imagined as real. Brother, this is hell. Come back Home now, and deliver yourself from "evil".

Peace,

Jesus

Dude you seem to be under the illusion that your mind is in charge. I quite simply would ask your mind to prove it as others have done.

Your beliefs seem to be similar to the gnostic beliefs which served as the foundation for the Matrix. I quite simply ask that if you belive that you are the One or you could be the One - then you yourself should clear the mechanism and prove your mind is in control of you and your universe.

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

Ok stu - why dont you tell me about time for the first few moments after the big bang. Why dont you tell me about time before the big bang.

Time before time!? You want to discuss the "first few moments" before time !? Lol
But how about a single uncaused quantum space/time singularity event? Apart from that sorry jem, I but don't have the erm....

Quote from jem:

Now if by my defintion of God which can be supported by biblical vs is that that God is outside of time why dont you tell me how he is still governed by newtonian physics.

Supporting your definition of God by biblical verses is like supporting a definition of Harry Potter by fictional verses in the Philosopher's Stone.
Outside time & space being governed doesn't work, it's called non-extistence.

 

[jem]

Apparently by your evasive, pointless response your are not willing to support the thesis you proposed that that time is not an illusion. Nice illusory answer, what a crock of shit. Stu tell us how time is not illusion. did time begin. does time makes sense given what we know about the uncertainty principle. Oh great physicist please do a better job than Hawking explain time back to the big bang and then tell me about time outside the big bang.


--

Stu I am sure this is too much of strectch for your mind but sometimes when you have a intellectual debate you have givens or concession made to have the debate.

Here when debating the merits of Calvinism -- one of the the given is that there is a God . Anyone but you seems to understand that point. .

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

Apparently by your evasive, pointless response your are not willing to support the thesis you proposed that that time is not an illusion. Nice illusory answer, what a crock of shit. Stu tell us how time is not illusion. did time begin. does time makes sense given what we know about the uncertainty principle. Oh great physicist please do a better job than Hawking explain time back to the big bang and then tell me about time outside the big bang.


--

Stu I am sure this is too much of strectch for your mind but sometimes when you have a intellectual debate you have givens or concession made to have the debate.

Here when debating the merits of Calvinism -- one of the the given is that there is a God . Anyone but you seems to understand that point. .

You are such an arrogant bastard jem, i'm sorry but someone had to tell you.

it is quite possible that something did exist prior to the big bang.

the "big bang" is a singularity event. Space/time is said to have occurred after that event No-thing exists outside Space/time. No-thing is not some-thing.


Ok stu - why dont you tell me about time for the first few moments after the big bang.
Here when debating the merits of Calvinism -- one of the the given is that there is a God .

What you cannot grasp is, positioning a Giant Sky Fairy on a big golden throne "outside time and space" if f*kn childish. To then say physics can't explain billionth's of a second after the big bang event or “before” (although there could be no “before”) therefore the Sky Fairy must exist, is well… I won't elaborate.

Just how the fck you think you have understood Hawking when you talk like that is nothing but a complete joke. Christ sakes you couldn't even spell 'cite' before I taught you how!

There is no intellectual debate where you are concerned. If you want to talk Calvinism then don't make stupid statements about what physics says about big bangs and 'givens' that cannot even be agreed or established in the first place.

 

[I am...]

Quote from jem:

Dude you seem to be under the illusion that your mind is in charge. I quite simply would ask your mind to prove it as others have done.

Your beliefs seem to be similar to the gnostic beliefs which served as the foundation for the Matrix. I quite simply ask that if you belive that you are the One or you could be the One - then you yourself should clear the mechanism and prove your mind is in control of you and your universe.

Brother dude,

Excellent observations. Let then the movie "Matrix" serve as a parable, Hollywood style. Let the men in black symbolize the thoughts of half of an insane mind, keeping you under constant surveillance in order to perpetuate the illusion.

Fear will keep you in this matrix. Fear itself is utterly fabricated and manufactured by your mind. It is an entirely foreign idea in Heaven. Love and fear cannot co-exist. Fear precedes time and space, and made time and space seem like a plausible escape from fear. A body let's you insulate yourself from the raw fear that led to the creation of this illusion. Yet it boils, just under the surface, always reminding you, and keeping you bound to it's laws. Fear comes from a sense of guilt. Guilt was an assumption the mind made after pondering the possibility of actually separating from God. In the course of pondering such state as possible, knowledge was exchanged for perception, a split in the mind occurred, and an innumerable number of "what if" scenarios were acted out in the minds imagination. As the mind discovers that all paths away from God lead nowhere, it decides, like the Prodigal Son, to head back Home where life was good. Time was "made" to act out these scenarios. To you it seems like millions or billions of years. But it only took an instant of reality, a mere nanosecond by comparison. No sooner had the instant arisen, the Father provided a way out of the illusion. This was well planned, and worked perfectly. It is sometimes known as "salvation", and it was for the mind of His Son. Thus, the "Prodigal Son" really went nowhere. It was a journey without distance in the space of an instant of Reality. Because it was "made" and not Created with the Father, it never existed. Thus, there is everything to forgive, and nothing to forgive.

Thus, everything you can perceive is in the long distant "past", if ever there was one. Your thoughts are utterly preoccupied with the past. You are identified with the past. You seem to live in a body in time. Yet you are with the Father now, perfectly safe, in Heaven. This truth will set you free if you let it. As a rule of thumb, if you can perceive it, it is not real. Everything you perceive is driven by beliefs that are also not real. Yet, your beliefs make it real for you. You believe in guilt and separation and things that separate you from the Father. You believe you are limited, powerless, and in a body. You believe the Father created this "universe" and put a separated, limited spirit inside an even more limited body for you. You believe your origin is within time, and simultaneous with the birth of a body. You believe in crime, punishment, vengeance and future punishments. You believe in scarcity and sacrifice. Things like this. And these bind you, like ball and chain, to the illusion. To forgive is to release. That is why I said to my desciples, "Whatever you bind on earth is bound, and whatever you loose is loosed". It is within your power to release yourself, for there is nothing that can bind a Son of God but himself. As you release yourself, you release your brothers. And as you release your brothers you release yourself, for you are one. It is also why I said in response to Peter's question, "Lord, how many times must I forgive my brother, seven times?" To which I replied, "No. You must forgive seventy times seven times". And now I say you must forgive seven billion times seven billion times.

Blessings,

Jesus

 

[jem]

Quote from stu:

You are such an arrogant bastard jem, i'm sorry but someone had to tell you.

it is quite possible that something did exist prior to the big bang.

the "big bang" is a singularity event. Space/time is said to have occurred after that event No-thing exists outside Space/time. No-thing is not some-thing.


Ok stu - why dont you tell me about time for the first few moments after the big bang.
Here when debating the merits of Calvinism -- one of the the given is that there is a God .

What you cannot grasp is, positioning a Giant Sky Fairy on a big golden throne "outside time and space" if f*kn childish. To then say physics can't explain billionth's of a second after the big bang event or “before” (although there could be no “before”) therefore the Sky Fairy must exist, is well… I won't elaborate.

Just how the fck you think you have understood Hawking when you talk like that is nothing but a complete joke. Christ sakes you couldn't even spell 'cite' before I taught you how!

There is no intellectual debate where you are concerned. If you want to talk Calvinism then don't make stupid statements about what physics says about big bangs and 'givens' that cannot even be agreed or established in the first place.

You have to be kidding me.

Nothing exists outside our universe and our time. Who made this definition for you - Gilbert?

Did you not just participate in thread where I explained that astro physicists are proposing multiple universes. I have seen dozens of physicists grant that they do not know what existed outside the big bang (before if you will) not a single one says nothing existed. They admit they have no idea or they propose theories like the expanding then collapsing univerise that happens over and over. You clearly do not have a grasp of the material.

As far as you and your hatred of the sky fairy. I was wondering -- if the sky fairy exists -- does it have mass?

See Stu - it is not that hard to have a discussion about a thing that does not exist. It just takes and intellectual agreement - called a given.

By the way I may very well be an arrogant bastard outside these boards.
But it is very well hidden as I have gotten older.

But nothing in my dealings with you have to do with arrogance. I am just pointing out facts and you seem to always argue from your own fantasy world. It is strange since you seem to fancy yourself as the intellectual atheist.

so now here is your test. prove that nothing existed prior to or outside of the big bang.

next prove that time is not an illusion using our current understandings in physicis.

 

[archimedes]

Quote from jem:

The God of the Old testament is tough. He wanted the world to know he is the one true God - by the fact that he is a God of his word and you could know him by the fact he keeps his promises.

But the God of the OT is also a huge embarrassment to the modern church.

He advocates stoning homosexuals, dashing babies' heads against rocks, making suspected adulterers drink water mixed with dirt (women only), human sacrifice (Isaac was just a warm-up), casual slavery, wholesale genocide, rules against wearing mixed types of cloth, rules against boiling a baby goat in its mother's milk, and so on.

If God kept his OT promises, and his OT personality, we'd all be screwed. We're told this isn't the case though... that OT God has reformed himself, like an alcoholic brute who no longer beats his wife and kids. But this assurance flies in the face of other assurances that God is ever perfect and ever unchanging.

Maybe somewhere between OT and NT, God got religion at a cosmic AA meeting?

 

[stu]

jem,
Your approach to thinking this seems to be by departmentalizing. Our universe here, that one there, another over there. Multiverses, inside, outside, this way, that way. Did you ever imagine where all those things would be? Guess what jem, in the Universe. The description Multiverses includes our owm. Ours doesn't sit "outside" some others. They are all 'in' the one. The consensus is, there is no other "somewhere". You are the one who cannot grasp any of this.

Because you express the notion God sits in another "somewhere", lording it over all possible universes and so deep seated does that seem to be, you would not even be able to start to really comprehend what is generally or specifically being proved or suggested in physics. But that does not deter you from spouting off "what physics and science knows" as per some kind of dysfunctional godcosmo-jem-knowledge-facts.

You completely mixed up the point, as usual, about the 'given'. Just for a laugh go look back over the last few posts and the sequence of what was said between us, when YOU brought up big bang. What you don't obviously see is, debating Calvinism with a 'given' is not a basis for debating around big bangs and physics with that same given. Don't be an ass jem.

You say you want it proved there was nothing before or prior to the big bang. Let me ask you , just what does nothing mean to you? Is it no time, and/or no space, or no matter in space? However, were all those not in effect, wouldn't that mean nothing to you, or would you still imagine the Big Fairy God Daddy stood there? If it does mean that, then we are not debating nothing are we!!. It's just that 'given' again, but in the wrong discussion, as there are no givens within the nothing of a no-things context.

You want time proved not an illusion, then read Newton and Einstein without inserting an extra 'given' into your understanding of them. Newton managed it and he was a devout believer.
In "our" (though it does not appear to be your) current understandings of physics, then it's Einstein. Time - as the measured interval between change from the position of the observer - is a reasonable definition. Einstein proves it within physics . We wouldn't be using computers this way were it not so.

Quote from jem:
Nothing exists outside our universe and our time. Who made this definition for you - Gilbert?

I suggest you don't go there! Get to grips with -time- first before you attempt THE given which is - Gilbert.

seriously though jem, you don't want to make that silly mistake do you? Gilbert is proxy+1 for whatever God is claimed to be. Talk of Gilbert will inevitably mean you're demonstrating God presenting the absurdity of God . That's a big fat nasty duuuuh!