Why vote this down?

[Burtakus]

Quote from bigarrow:

The minimum wage is a safety net for the poor, those not as smart or motivated as you. So what that you've worked for minimum wage and now your successful so have I. But not everyone is as smart, educated and driven or as tough as you are. Some people are doing as good as they can but they will never be leaders all they'll have is a life of hard work at low wages. History has proved if there are not worker safety nets like minimum wage laws, child labor laws, overtime laws, then business does and will take advantage of the workers. What makes our country so great is we let the smart and motivated like you become successful but we still have a heart and a sense of decency and will protect the less advantaged. And without these same type of laws many successful people would be working 60 and 70 hour weeks without overtime. No one gripes about federal mandated overtime laws because that might affect them too.

I have no problem with a minimum wage law. What I do have a problem with is that people feel that they are entitled to a certain standard of living regardless of what they do. Raising the minimum wage to provide a certain standard of living is a problem. If a person is not motivated enough to better themselves and get a job that pays above minimum wage then I see no reason to help them out and mandate a better living for them. At some point it has got to come down to personal responsibility. I see no reason to help a person who is not willing to help himself or herself.

I am not any smarter than the next person. You do not have to be a genius to succeed in this country. All it takes is the desire to better yourself and the determination to carry it through. If all you are willing to do is put in your 40 a week at the job then you will go nowhere.

Personally, I could give a shit about overtime laws. Have you ever been an exempt employee? There is no such thing as overtime pay for an exempt employee. You put in your 50+ hours a week but only get paid based on 40.

Once again, I do not have a problem with a minimum wage. I agree that it should be set locally since $5.15 in Arkansas is a whole lot more than $5.15 in San Francisco. What I do disagree with is people bitching about how they are entitled to a certain standard of living regardless of what they do to earn it.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Burtakus:

What I do disagree with is people bitching about how they are entitled to a certain standard of living regardless of what they do to earn it.

You're confusing two absolutely unrelated issues, minimum wage has nothing to do with the sense of entitlement. People willing to work for minimum wage are not entitled to get a job, have a job or to keep their jobs, they can be fired at will and easily replaced if they don't peform.

The minimum wage law makes sure that if an employer is happy with his employees he's expected to pay them a bare minimum allowing them to afford food and shelter. Is that the sense of entitlement, is that too much to ask in a civilized society, would you prefer to live in a country where endentured servitude is allowed?

 

[pattersb]

Quote from dddooo:

You're confusing two absolutely unrelated issues, minimum wage has nothing to do with the sense of entitlement. People willing to work for minimum wage are not entitled to get a job, have a job or to keep their jobs, they can be fired at will and easily replaced if they don't peform.

The minimum wage law makes sure that if an employer is happy with his employees he's expected to pay them a bare minimum allowing them to afford food and shelter. Is that the sense of entitlement, is that too much to ask in a civilized society, would you prefer to live in a country where endentured servitude is allowed?

Typical feel-good liberalism. "It makes me feel good, so it must be right. Perhaps not correct, but it's right. Perhaps, I may be creating a bigger problem then I intend to solve, but it makes me feel self-righteous to be on the opposing side of those greedy-evil repupliklans!"

And this guy questions my intelligence, and the validity of my arguments when he solely relies on his "feelings"... BLAH,BLAH,BLAG


Respond to my "rightwing rant" suggesting the mere existence of a minimum wage may actually SUPPRESS wages.


Here's some more fodder ...

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/edu/hedcew6-29.000/hedcew6-29.htm

What does the figure show? Contrary to its intended effect, the estimated impact of an increase in the minimum wage is to raise the proportion of families at the lower end

of the income-to-needs distribution, both below the poverty line, and between one and one-and-a-half times the poverty line.

Conversely, the minimum wage reduces the proportion of families with incomes between one-and-a-half and three times the poverty line, families that might be characterized as lower middle class.

To conclude, legislators who support increasing the minimum wage typically state that they believe this policy will help poor families. However, our research indicates that past experience with minimum wage increases in the U.S. is at odds with this view. Minimum wages no doubt help some families escape poverty, because some low-wage workers retain their jobs and experience an increase in income. However, the employment losses associated with the minimum, coupled with the position in the income distribution of the families where those job losses occur, combine to cause some families to fall into poverty. On balance, our estimates suggest that the latter effect outweighs the former, and, therefore, the net effect of minimum wages is to increase the proportion of families that are poor


I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this research with you and will be happy to answer questions later.



WRITTEN STATEMENT OF DAVID NEUMARK, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY, EAST LANSING, MI -- SEE APPENDIX C




NOT MY ARGUMENT...

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Minimum wage has not increased for what, 10 years?

During the Bush regime, poverty rate increases.....the past 4 years in a row.....despite job increases....

So much for you silly little argument....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0831/p02s01-usec.html

Quote from pattersb:

Typical feel-good liberalism. "It makes me feel good, so it must be right. Perhaps not correct, but it's right. Perhaps, I may be creating a bigger problem then I intend to solve, but it makes me feel self-righteous to be on the opposing side of those greedy-evil repupliklans!"

And this guy questions my intelligence, and the validity of my arguments when he solely relies on his "feelings"... BLAH,BLAH,BLAG


Respond to my "rightwing rant" suggesting the mere existence of a minimum wage may actually SUPPRESS wages.


Here's some more fodder ...

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/edu/hedcew6-29.000/hedcew6-29.htm

What does the figure show? Contrary to its intended effect, the estimated impact of an increase in the minimum wage is to raise the proportion of families at the lower end

of the income-to-needs distribution, both below the poverty line, and between one and one-and-a-half times the poverty line.

Conversely, the minimum wage reduces the proportion of families with incomes between one-and-a-half and three times the poverty line, families that might be characterized as lower middle class.

To conclude, legislators who support increasing the minimum wage typically state that they believe this policy will help poor families. However, our research indicates that past experience with minimum wage increases in the U.S. is at odds with this view. Minimum wages no doubt help some families escape poverty, because some low-wage workers retain their jobs and experience an increase in income. However, the employment losses associated with the minimum, coupled with the position in the income distribution of the families where those job losses occur, combine to cause some families to fall into poverty. On balance, our estimates suggest that the latter effect outweighs the former, and, therefore, the net effect of minimum wages is to increase the proportion of families that are poor

 

[Arnie]

Burtakas makes a very valid point. If its about a "living wage" then why not base it on regional conditions? Even HUD does this with max loan amounts for FHA insured loans. People in San Francisco can get a bigger loan than people in Peoria beacause of the difference in prices.

I understand the concept of a min wage, that there be some underlying fairness, but really, if someone is happy working for min wage, why is it up to the govt to mandate a higher wage? Why not mandate lower rents? Or max prices for groceries? Any time a outside force (i.e. not a market condition like supply/demand) is brought to bear on the economy you get unintended consequences. My first job paid the min wage at the time, $1/hr. When i got my first paycheck of $16, I thought I was rich. Neeless to say it was only a stepping stone to higher paying jobs.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

When you got your first check, were you supporting a family?

Not likely....

Quote from Arnie:

Burtakas makes a very valid point. If its about a "living wage" then why not base it on regional conditions? Even HUD does this with max loan amounts for FHA insured loans. People in San Francisco can get a bigger loan than people in Peoria beacause of the difference in prices.

I understand the concept of a min wage, that there be some underlying fairness, but really, if someone is happy working for min wage, why is it up to the govt to mandate a higher wage? Why not mandate lower rents? Or max prices for groceries? Any time a outside force (i.e. not a market condition like supply/demand) is brought to bear on the economy you get unintended consequences. My first job paid the min wage at the time, $1/hr. When i got my first paycheck of $16, I thought I was rich. Neeless to say it was only a stepping stone to higher paying jobs.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Arnie:

My first job paid the min wage at the time, $1/hr. When i got my first paycheck of $16, I thought I was rich.

Just like Burtakus you enjoyed the benefits of the minimum wage but want to deny them to future generations. If it was not for the minimum wage your first job would have paid $0.1/hr, your first paycheck would have been $1.6.

 

[Arnie]

You both miss the whole point. It was an ENTRY level job. Hell, if they had paid $2/hr I might have stayed in dead end job instead of trying to improve my lot.

Let me ask you something, Z and dddooo.

Do you know anyone that makes min wage?

 

[dddooo]

Quote from pattersb:

Respond to my "rightwing rant" suggesting the mere existence of a minimum wage may actually SUPPRESS wages.

STATEMENT OF JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIST, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE, WASHINGTON, DC


this is one economic issue for which we have a large body of empirical evidence. Here's what the evidence shows.

First, increases in the minimum wage that raise the earnings of the working poor have historically helped to lower poverty rates.

Second, this evidence is even stronger in the 1990's, as relatively large numbers of poor persons move into the labor market.

Third, the theory that small increases in the minimum wage lead to job losses has repeatedly been tested and repeatedly been found lacking. The estimates of the purported job loss hover at or close to zero. While this aspect of the debate may be an important one among economatricians, from the perspective of policymakers who are looking for ways to help the working poor, it is a distinction without a difference.

Fourth, evidence from the most recent increase in the minimum wage underscores all of the points I've made so far. The 1996-1997 increase helped to raise the earnings of poor workers, and to lower the poverty rates. In addition, there is no evidence of any negative employment impacts. To the contrary, the low-wage labor market is tighter now than it has been in three decades. Unemployment rates of low-wage workers stand at 30-year lows. Employment rates of women leaving welfare to work are at record highs. These facts clearly support the contention that if Congress wants to make work pay, the current proposal to increase the minimum wage makes sense.

Finally, while the proposed increase will help the working poor, it cannot, and should not, be viewed as a sole solution to the poverty problem. Poor families will continue to need income support such as the EITC and food stamps. The increase in the minimum wage, however, will generally lower their dependence on unearned income.
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/edu/hedcew6-29.000/hedcew6-29.htm

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Yes.

Quote from Arnie:

You both miss the whole point. It was an ENTRY level job. Hell, if they had paid $2/hr I might have stayed in dead end job instead of trying to improve my lot.

Let me ask you something, Z and dddooo.

Do you know anyone that makes min wage?