Why predict?

Quote from nitro:

I am not making an assertion as to whether people act in herds or not, and whether you could gain information from noticing that they do. That was my whole point about asking the "wrong" question: it doesn't matter to many traders that are hugely profitable. In the hope of being more clear, I am making two statements:

1) Many if not most derivatives traders assume that the underlying follows a [Geometric] Brownian Motion, or said another way that the underlying is a random variable like a coin flip. Whether that is the truth or not is a philosophical question to derivatives traders. The way they make markets or compute theoretical prices completely ignores this philosophical question because the simplification of assuming a random variable and ignoring the philosophical question doesn't affect their profitability.

2) I stated that the question of trying to predict markets confused people into followig the wrong path to trading profitability. I tried to give an analogy by showing how you can make money playing games where the outcome of the event is random and therefore unpredictable by definition. While I do not claim that markets are coin tossing games, the insight gained from reducing the complexities of markets to simple games like these should not be underestimated. In fact, if you understand the mathematics of coin flips and expentancies etc, it is amazing how close you get to the way options prices are derived mathematically.


I had to read this a couple of times to understand what you say I am saying, but I think you got it. I am saying that an option's price does not predict where the underlying goes. It says that given a volatility expectation for that option, I can compute it's fair price by plugging that value along with other less complex parameters into the Black Scholes model. The BS model then outputs the theoretical price. This theoretical price plays the same role as the 50:50 probability that we realize is true for a coin flip. It is the average price when all possible paths are computed and weighted according to probabilities. Same with the coin flip.

We then make a market around that theo price, which is the edge we demand for making a market. If you fill where we make a market, it is like the coin toss game where we demand 60% if we win and we pay out 40% if we lose. Of course, on any one realization of this game, it may be 80:20 or 90:10 or whatever, but over many many trials and many many positions, that or somethig like it is our expectancy. Notice there is no prediction of the underlying whatsoever, and in fact we have no idea which trades will lose or win. Prediction is replaced by computation of fair price, and our edge is the spread we make around fair price, which we demand for taking the risk and providing liquidity.


Nearly 100% of options market making firms do exactly this. It is hugely profitable and has been for decades.

nitro

Nitro,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It is post like this with high content value that makes people keep coming to ET.

A question pops up my mind after reading your post - If almost all option MM use such model then to what point would profit be arbitraged out? It seems to me if competition get really bad it would all boil down to execution speed or maybe customer order flows for MM/Broker firms like IB. Of course unless someone come up with a better model and could tighten up the spread further and assume higher risk without blowing up. But then the other guy would come up with still better models and faster executions. Would this ever end? Maybe in the end it's all about having customer orders and no one can make money without having a brokerage operation sitting on top of MM operation?

Is that so? Or maybe the market is just so inefficient?
 
Quote from laputa:

Nitro,

...If almost all option MM use such model then to what point would profit be arbitraged out?
Good question. I'm interested in nitro's response, too. My own naive guess is that the only way to overcome this issue is by either having a "better" adaptation of the model (easier said than done given the formidable competition), or assuming some directional exposure in one form or another. If I had to bet a dollar, I would bet that it comes down to the latter for most people. Nitro?
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Good question. I'm interested in nitro's response, too. My own naive guess is that the only way to overcome this issue is by either having a "better" adaptation of the model (easier said than done given the formidable competition), or assuming some directional exposure. If I had to bet a dollar, I would bet that it comes down to the latter for most people. Nitro?

ThunderDog,

I'm not an expert in this thing so it's just my guess. I think Nitro does imply directional exposure in any single one trade. It's just a matter of "balancing" such exposure overall.
 
Quote from laputa:

ThunderDog,

I'm not an expert in this thing so it's just my guess. I think Nitro does imply directional exposure in any single one trade. It's just a matter of "balancing" such exposure overall.
Yes, that sounds right. (Hey, it's Friday afternoon, cut me some slack, boyo. :D ) So I guess it's more a matter of directional bias with better odds, as per nitro's 60/40 coin toss analogy. But as the competition intensifies with other such sophisticated players, as you suggested, perhaps the hypothetical 60/40 begins to move closer to 51/49. Of course, at this point I'll believe anything.:D
 
I ask you then, how is it that the biggest players in the market, derivatives traders, assume a random underlying, and make money hand over fist? If the underlying is random, how can anyone make money? If you bet on a fair coin, how can you make money playing the flip of that coin?

Nitro you are into books. Read AGAINST GODS by P. Bernstein, especially chapter on futures. It's absolutely irrelevant whether market is random or not. He is the only one (I know) who understand why it is possible to extract money from markets, philosophically speaking. Again it has nothing to do with random or non-random. One sentence says it all:
VOLATILITY IS CHEAP

P.S. These endless discussions about random vs no-random prove you can make $$$ without true understanding why it's actually possible.
 
your 's are OT for this thread but I will answer (See colored parsings)

It's a funny thread anyway; as you know nitro put me on ignore the second post I made long ago. LOL.


Quote from ubertuber:

Hi Jack,

These questions are in positive reaction to your contribution to this thread.

Could you lay out more on how your brain stem functions? (thought processes)

For a while I participated with a multidisciplinary team at a learning hospital at the invitation of my psychiatrist who is also a Native American shaman. Another team member was an immunologist named Sanna (Susanna) Ehdin, PhD. Over time we explored your question and the consequences are that a book will be jointly written on trading and the mind.

Much has been written on how the potential of the mind is not realized by mostly everyone. A quadraplegic friend of mine, who was a full team member doing incubation of solutions to institutional problems went from his Peace corps accident in Africa to escaping the VA health system to becoming a liscensed automobile driver of a stock Buick by making a mental effort to circumvent his full paralyzed body. It was not possible until he did it by thinking his way to a solution.

I have been very fortunate to have worked with very capable and inovative people.

We have built a basic architecture of how to trade from the iteratively refined mental process I use. It will be streamlined in the future and parsed into methods for any market.

Originally I used 19 sequential parts to complete the mental cycle for doing a routine lap. It devolved into a 5 part sequence that went from point A to point B. It is presently described as "sports memory" trading. People, at this point are able to watch but it is true that they do not actually follow it in real time. An advertising analysis machine will be used in the future to record and disect the observable aspects.

A systemmatic series of videos were made to delve into how I do ech part o eh thing I do as a slow motion Q and A process such as is carried out at depositions aimed at getting truths.

I had, in computer terms, written the logic out about 18 years prior to the video interviews. Many many hours of videos were dome at various times over the years; these were in real time and extented or as long as battery packs held out on portable video cameras.

If you read about how timed chess or, say how # 34 of basketball fame plays you can get a picture. I have had formal training job skills that involve personal survival under any condition that may manifest.


Your levels of awareness? (knowing that you know, etc.)

I am a trainer and debriefer in the field of negotiations. Methodologically, I am also an originator measurement techniques. For me and a trained synchonized team, we do criteria sweep sets in 12 second laps repeated critically throughout whole episodes.

We are capable of documentation and debriefing in any real time scenario at any level of negotiation.

In problem solving, awareness is a key ingredient. To do anything it takes many laps of what I call work. as a person deals with dimensions that can be reduced to time and size, he finally comes to a full awareness.

I cheat because I am trained in theoretical physic and I know to stay well away from using the traps in that science. It is important to also keenly know that measuring has a characteristic that sort of drives you towards the physics generated dilemma.

So it is possible to do workarounds to solve these limitations.

The financial industry will not see this because they "bought" a tradition that makes making money not possible to any extent. See financial engineering and its failures.

Take Pekelo and Nitro as examples. To become aware of their stations, is something that is not important but it is something to learn from for sure. They are models of operating units in the financial industry. One believes in prediction and the other believes in random something. They aren't frogs on a table but they do speak well about misconceptions that deny any longterm participation in the industry.

Contrast them to the precepts that make money:

Being in the market.

Being on the right side of the market.

Seeing and understanding what the market is offering.

Seeing the price change is the single element that allows money to be made.

Using using these concepts to make money all of the time.

What does predicting or random walk have to do with any of the above? Nothing they aremutualy exclusive.

So what awareness all comes down to is, testing yourself to know that what you are acquiring is true and correct. Self learning is the best example.

Learning statistical mechanics and the associated differential equations type mathematics require an intellectual pursuit where you are wholly aware of what is at hand. Doing problems and reading about things is trite. What is at hand is getting the mind to operate and getting the memory to cooperate in the process.

I have been told that my retention is high and also that I can correlate things. This was especially noticable doing continuous frementation and pyrolysis of various organics. The theme was heat or lack of heat to get the job done.

I reviewed your posts to respond to you; so my response is in the context of how you think.


How do you approach negative emotions?

There is a spectrum of negative emotions. Emotions are invariably coupled to the senses and that is how they originate either remotely or in various centers. I ignore pain since it does not hurt or damage. On the other hand I am very sensitive to the physiological or psychological causes of pain. Causes can have consequences.

To extend this thought to lesser aspects of the negative spectrum, I deal in the same way.

I do not know how many times time has been called at this point nor do I remember how many times I have been to Paris. This is not a numbing in any way; it is just a matter of being able to be at a tip top human performance level.

Specific to trading, I regard six emotions and they are in two sub sets: A support, comfort and confidence; and B fear, anxiety and anger. Group A is part of my trading and group B is used as a detector of the unknown and uncertainty. If group B, surfaces, something is in the space that needs to be fixed. I wish I could use smell for unknowns and uncertainty since it is more reliable in terms of the most minute detectable occurrance.


more...
 
continuation....

What fuels the capacity of your output?

Past challenges presented to me whether desired or not. In the end, thinking critically most of the time is what enlarges capacity.

Losing count of deaths, whether necessary or uncecessary, allows a person to grow to be able to meet challenges. Having the capacity to respond while skiing the inferno or the flying mile; recovering flight after being flipped over by a vertical shear near the deck; or seeing a fifty footer's bow buried seven feet in blue water while cutting sheets and men overboard are just extreme events. Sports emergencies are part of recreational opportunities.

I was never CEO of more than five corporations at any time. Creating new businesses to solve institutional problems is THE opportunity of a lifetime.

Today, I am a product of ever growing capacity. Merit badges started my capacity growth. Walking out of college in six years with two degrees came from two meals a day, paying my way without debt and taking extra courses every term of my schooling. I changed majors four times along the way.

Once you sleep four hours a night and knock out books year after year and work at places like EOP, BTL, IBM and deal with creating institutional solutions like EPA, DOE, new fuels from biomass and waste, PL 92-500, etc, you get capacity.

I give about everything away as SOP; it is helpful to others.


Is it the emotion of 'caring'?

Caring is the premise of about everything that is successful in the world. My first CARE project was KARE because CARE made us change the name. No problem. We simply changed the name to Knowledgable Action to Restore our Environment. It was the largest HEW grant ever given and it followed the Ford Foundation seed grant we got to create and awareness of what was wrong out there, later to be called the environment.

Today everyone everwhere cares about the environment. People are now learning to care about energy.

I use Franco Modigliani's work as my theme for the 19 products associated with our corporate thrust to assure that all families are prepared for any sudden unexpected harm and disasters. Our foundation deals with the results of these things when preparation has not been done.


Intellectual eureka statements?

I agreed with my psychiatrist several years ago to not continue my big ten list. At this point I have a way to seed the list with people who are acquiring mental stamina and capability. And I have stored piles of computers and rooms of stuff.

The eureka comes from a small place. I continually dwell upon only one thing. The time and size of things. It takes 12 people to run SAC's trading. Coincidentally, it only takes about 12 days to rep any house's annual performance without affecting the markets. Nitro's commentary is humor to me and so is Derman's.

What I do now is meet occasionally and fill in 8 1/2 by 11 sheets with logic pictures. Think of about 100 sheets to define a market pool extraction system. Each shape on each sheet is a snippet of future coding. Snippets are just a couple of pages of coding. A system is a time and size thing. Markets are where money is moved from one place to another. You do not leave money in the markets as you move it. You move it OUT of the market. Compounding capital is not done in one place. All you need is a pump and the pump pumps at the capacity the market offers.


Food/diet?

I no longer make food and diet decisions; I am past that. A team of people monitor and adjust me. I do not work very well at this point. Almost without exception the people I meet with know when to shut me down and get me into a recovery mode.

I walk 3 miles a day in under 50 minutes but as the day goes on if I am "working" I can't maintain my O2 satisfactorily. I rest to not fade further. Sleep is a real enterprise for me. The game plan is to keep in condition by walking and gradually walk my way to a better condition.


Other?

As it turns out I am here to do a job. It is pretty clear to those who know me. I have a Jiminy Cricket and I always have had one. Naturally, I keep in touch and just tool along. I'll be going to Antartica for my birthday; by then I will have gotten five presents ready to hand out to everyone in the form of books that cover all the bases for families to have everything they need throughout their lives.

Finally , what is your world view?

I've always enjoyed that wonderful feeling of contributing to the world. I think of it as a balloon with a biosphere on the surface that is about equal to a coat of paint on the balloon. It has gotten tangible too. Review the Ebola news clips. Look at the light planes on runways and the clinics nearby. That came from Greenwich; a hedge separated Glennie's dad's place from ours and he wanted to do medicine in Africa. specialties spread around and quick transportation was the answer; figured out in his kitchen. You may have seen the spread of the EPA. I liked building trails from one nation to another under the world heritage program of the UN. Talking with its director in view of three of the four highest peaks in Canada was a treat for us when he came to our work site(volumteers man the program these days all over the world.)

I like working with Ekistics as a global program on the science of human settlements. Doksiotis (SP) was a cool leader and it was the time of the world vis avis gaming problem solving. I did REPS in many countries. The Club of Rome project had two places in the US for adjusting coefficients. I played the Eastern game. 1958 marked the peak for all time is "satisfaction units" and the science definition of fads came out of the CR.

ET has a global aspect to it. We lost track of how many were passing forward the trading in the very early 90's when it was 10K or more. Now we are in the third generation. 2007 has been a good wrap in ET. Now it is well known that the sun doen't set on PVT and SCT. We feel that the "measles" is underway. It looks like the manual and ATS's apply just as does music and architecture and enginering drawings.

Of the world persons I have worked with, I like my rememberances of E. F. Schmacher, Doksiotos and Bucky best of all. My fav places are Zurich and Singapore and Tucson most of all.


Uber [/B][/QUOTE]
 
Quote from Rahula:
...
You still haven't explain how a trader/investor can profit.
You can't put these in the same category and expect anything but the most general response. Investors have their money working for them. Traders have to work for their money. Also, the term trader is a loose term thrown around on ET. If I play fastball in the ballpark with my friend, I am a baseball player, but would you put me in the same league as Arod? I guess what I am saying is that ET terribly warps what trading is. If there was one definition of a trader, it is: traders rarely take liquidity from markets, they provide it, at a cost of at least the B/A spread, and they always have some idea of when an asset is trading out of whack by some very precise measure.

So you're basically saying all traders/investors should just be market makers. [/B]
If you had the resources to be a MM, and you had the technological knowhow, and you had the trading experience, then by gawd man, yes.

I am not saying that it is the only way to make money, but if I could compare MMs to the animal kingdom in Africa, then MMs would be the lions, certainly no worse the hyenas, in the food chain.

nitro
 
Quote from laputa:

Nitro,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It is post like this with high content value that makes people keep coming to ET.

A question pops up my mind after reading your post - If almost all option MM use such model then to what point would profit be arbitraged out? It seems to me if competition get really bad it would all boil down to execution speed or maybe customer order flows for MM/Broker firms like IB. Of course unless someone come up with a better model and could tighten up the spread further and assume higher risk without blowing up. But then the other guy would come up with still better models and faster executions. Would this ever end? Maybe in the end it's all about having customer orders and no one can make money without having a brokerage operation sitting on top of MM operation?

Is that so? Or maybe the market is just so inefficient?
YW.

The thing that separates one option trader from another can be summed up in three concepts, volatility, volatility of volatility, and the error term in the estimation of the volatility of volatility .

If your estimate of volatility is generally better than others, you will make money trading options, assuming you know how to put positions together. You have to know what tools (straddles, risk reversals, put/call spreads, ratio spreads, butterflies, etc etc etc) to use. When you are handed edge, how to put the pieces together as you get legs filled, or how quickly you hedge naked risk away.

There is very little arbitrage in index options. Since our theos are generated from our estimate of vol, and someone else's is based on their estimate of vol, we may both think that we have an "arbitrage" and be on opposite sides of the trade. In equity options arbitrage is far more common, but not in index options.

MMs are constantly working on their models. But the key to a good model isn't that it divines the future because that doesn't exist. Good models are highly calibrateable, so that a talented trader can adjust vol, skew, kurtosis, etc as he reads flow coming into the markets he makes. By doing so, he is making markets more aggressively on some strikes or months, and how he does that may depend on the position he already has on. The position manager tells you what your risks are, and you try to balance that out each day. I can't over stress how important the technology backing this operation is. 99% of the software we use is made in house, tailor made. Problems get turned around in minutes, and rarely longer than a day.

I can't stress enough how mathematically precise options MM is, but what most do not know is that behind that precision there is a great trader, called the vol fitter, that makes it all work. It is a high art and probably cannot be automated, although that is debatable.

I guess I didn't really answer your question. All I can tell you is that trading, when done right, is nearly as certain as getting a paycheck, a big fat one.

Insitutions need insurance on their portfolios. MMs provide that at a cost. Is that inneficient? I have no idea. Both sides meet and do business each day.

nitro
 
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