Why NYSE market orders SUCK

alanm · Dec 13, 2002

So, today's IBM close provided some interesting fodder for this discussion.

IBM was trading around 79.25 near the close and then, all of a sudden, in the minute after 16:00, the offer goes to 80.00, and the NYSE prints (without the Z modifier) 169400, 3000, 18500, and the closing print of 241200, all at 80.00.

At 15:40, a buy imbalance of 118K shares (not very much) was published. At 15:50, there was no imbalance remaining.

The stock didn't trade any real volume north of 17.40 all day.

So, what was this? A last-second market order to buy another couple hundred thousand shares, shorted to him by the spec and others up 0.75? It seems pretty unusual to see this in a big liquid Dow stock. It spiked the Dow up about 5 points.

Anyone trade IBM as a pair? What against?

fatman · Dec 13, 2002

Quote from vhehn:

first call your broker and complain.they should work for you to get it corrected if you deserve it.

Actually, I am a prop trader with a direct access firm, any other suggestions?

Free Thinker · Dec 13, 2002

Quote from fatman:

Actually, I am a prop trader with a direct access firm, any other suggestions?

im not sure who is responsible at a prop firm but assume they have someone who does this job. in any case i think its too late now.i think your time limit would be hours not days.by monday it probably will be way too late.send don bright an email.he would know.

fatman · Dec 14, 2002

Quote from vhehn:

im not sure who is responsible at a prop firm but assume they have someone who does this job. in any case i think its too late now.i think your time limit would be hours not days.by monday it probably will be way too late.send don bright an email.he would know.

I am sure it is too late. I'm just trying to figure out what I should do next time I have a problem.

And please don't assume my firm has someone else to deal with it. All of the suport guys are super over worked. In general if I need something done right I have to do it myself, including checking orders, changing routers/servers and other stuff like that.

Thanks for your help, I guess I'll just try to fine some other resource that may be more helpful.

ghostrider · Dec 14, 2002

Quote from alanm:

So, today's IBM close provided some interesting fodder for this discussion.

IBM was trading around 79.25 near the close and then, all of a sudden, in the minute after 16:00, the offer goes to 80.00, and the NYSE prints (without the Z modifier) 169400, 3000, 18500, and the closing print of 241200, all at 80.00.

what is the z modifier???????????????? thx

ari_veru · Dec 14, 2002

Quote from fatman:

I am sure it is too late. I'm just trying to figure out what I should do next time I have a problem.

And please don't assume my firm has someone else to deal with it. All of the suport guys are super over worked. In general if I need something done right I have to do it myself, including checking orders, changing routers/servers and other stuff like that.

Thanks for your help, I guess I'll just try to fine some other resource that may be more helpful.

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I trade with a prop firm. When we have problems with NYSE specialist fills, we contact our trader support stuff, who I believe send their representative on the floor to the specialist post to clear out the problem, so I quess it's not something you can do yourself. So far I've had about 5 complains, and have had only 1 of them resolved, so now I don't even bother with this.

fatman · Dec 14, 2002

Quote from ari_veru:

----------------------------

I trade with a prop firm. When we have problems with NYSE specialist fills, we contact our trader support stuff, who I believe send their representative on the floor to the specialist post to clear out the problem, so I quess it's not something you can do yourself. So far I've had about 5 complains, and have had only 1 of them resolved, so now I don't even bother with this.

Thank you for your answer. As with most things it seem like more trouble than it is worth.

alanm · Dec 21, 2002

I don't think it's more trouble than it's worth, if for no other reason than to keep them on their toes. To the guy at the prop firm: find out how your NYSE orders are routed. Whoever is on the other end has a trade desk that handles disputes. Call them.

The "Z" modifier indicates a trade is being reported late to the tape.

axeman · Dec 22, 2002

Ooooooooooh the "Z" modifier.... you mean that
modifier they use EVERY SINGLE DAY when there
is any kind of momentum, and report every trade as
LATE as possible so everyone doesnt jump on board
too fast and clobber the specialist??? hehe

When a spec gets a big order, and is selling or accumulating
shares over a long period of time, how long can he
wait before he reports the transaction? Usually in big
blocks? 15 mins? 30 mins? what?

PS. Recently I sold 500 shares market, but at least this time
the SPEC screwed me correctly. He printed me 100
shares, dropped the bid 10 cents and printed the rest,
THEN brought the bid back up.

peace

axeman

alanm · Dec 22, 2002

If someone's working a big order as principal, I don't think they have to print the "clean-up" trade transferring the stock to the customer until they are done, which could theoretically be days. In practice, I think they usually try to clean up at the end of each day if it takes multiple days to get the order done (i.e. in an illiquid stock).