Why most pro traders are gamblers, and why risk control prevents success with OPM

Its got nothing to do with liquidity or "gambling" per se. The world in which we live in is full of gambles/risk/ probabilities.

For example:

1- marrying one person over the other in the hopes that you'll be in a happier, more rewarding relationship,

2- knowing when to cross the street at the right time to decrease your probability of getting hit by a vehicle,

3- choosing one job with an employer over the other to increase your probablilty of making more money, room for advancement, etc. ,

4- choosing the right speed driving on a highway to get to your destination quicker without overly increasing your probability of getting into an accident.

...in summary: its a matter of knowing how to gauge and manage RISK. And the only way to excel in managing risk is thru experience and learning from your mistakes.
 
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

If they take way too much risk, then we must reduce all reported returns to compensate. For example, take someone like Dan Loeb, who was down 29% in 2008, and whose peak/valley drawdown was presumably higher than that. Let's be generous and call it 35%. It is pretty obvious that no hedge fund manager plans for a 35% drawdown by choice. I'd say that 20% is about the maximum drawdown acceptable. Loeb lost 35% (probably a bit more) at the peak. That is what actually happened, therefore his true risk was higher (since market conditions worse than 2008 can and have occurred), let's say his true risk was 40% (again, generous assumption). This means that if he had been trading at proper size, his position size, and thus his returns, would be cut in half (actually slightly more than half, due to compounding effects). I don't have his precise return numbers but I think they are in the high teens. So his true return, adjusted to a sensible risk level, is actually in the high single digits. Would you pay 2 and 20 for an 8-9% gross return? If he had traded half size from the beginning, would he have attracted any assets with a return less than half of what he actually made before 2008?

This story is replicated across literally thousands of funds, most of which have returns and records worse than Loeb's (I am not picking on him, he was just the first suitable example I saw). As an example I could give the highly rated Citadel. Their flagship fund lost 50% at the worst point in 2008. This means they were taking about 3 times as much risk as they should. Their returns were in the 30% range. Thus their true returns, at a sensible level of risk (20% max drawdown) was below 10% per annum i.e. nothing special.

Based on this analogy it is not even sensible to invest (no leverage) in the market. The annualised return of the market (DJIA) over the last century had been about 10%, and with max drawdown of 90% during the depression, the sharpe ratio is abysmal. Is that what you mean?
 
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

I am curious about a common phenomenon - pro traders, especially fund managers, suffering large drawdowns.

Some basic assumptions, if recognised by a trader, should make this almost impossible unless the trader is stupid, incompetent, or taking way more risk than he should. Here they are:

1. Whatever approach you use, at some point you will run into a market environment that is very hostile to it.

2. When this happens, a large majority of your bets will hit their max possible loss (which, hopefully, is your stop-loss point on each trade, rather than a price of $0 or $margin-call).

3. You will thus earn your max expected drawdown under these conditions.

Therefore, under no circumstances should a competent trader with proper risk control ever lose more than their maximum expected drawdown.

Yet if you look at most pro traders and fund managers, almost all of them have had max drawdowns greater than they expected. But as I have shown above, this is virtually impossible if you stick to the simple and obvious assumptions above.

The logical conclusion is that most traders don't actually stick to one or more of these assumptions. We can therefore infer that they must be making one of the following errors:

1. They do not think a hostile market environment for their approach will occur
2. They are taking risk at a level high enough that a hostile market environment will cause losses way in excess of their maximum expected drawdown
3. They simply have no risk control

I'd say most pro traders have 1 and 3 covered. Therefore, the clear conclusion is that most pro traders take way too much risk.

If they take way too much risk, then we must reduce all reported returns to compensate. For example, take someone like Dan Loeb, who was down 29% in 2008, and whose peak/valley drawdown was presumably higher than that. Let's be generous and call it 35%. It is pretty obvious that no hedge fund manager plans for a 35% drawdown by choice. I'd say that 20% is about the maximum drawdown acceptable. Loeb lost 35% (probably a bit more) at the peak. That is what actually happened, therefore his true risk was higher (since market conditions worse than 2008 can and have occurred), let's say his true risk was 40% (again, generous assumption). This means that if he had been trading at proper size, his position size, and thus his returns, would be cut in half (actually slightly more than half, due to compounding effects). I don't have his precise return numbers but I think they are in the high teens. So his true return, adjusted to a sensible risk level, is actually in the high single digits. Would you pay 2 and 20 for an 8-9% gross return? If he had traded half size from the beginning, would he have attracted any assets with a return less than half of what he actually made before 2008?

This story is replicated across literally thousands of funds, most of which have returns and records worse than Loeb's (I am not picking on him, he was just the first suitable example I saw). As an example I could give the highly rated Citadel. Their flagship fund lost 50% at the worst point in 2008. This means they were taking about 3 times as much risk as they should. Their returns were in the 30% range. Thus their true returns, at a sensible level of risk (20% max drawdown) was below 10% per annum i.e. nothing special.

A further piece of evidence is that long/short equity funds have historically averaged exposure of 35-40%. Since the worst drawdown in US equity markets is 89% (1929-32) and 99-100% worldwide, their risk from market risk alone is 30-40%, double the 20% recommended limit. One can add on top the risk of shorts going up and longs falling at the same time etc.

One can conclude from this that without taking nutty levels of risk, almost all pro traders cannot make superior returns. The way to gather assets in the pro game is to take insane levels of risk (e.g. 2-3 times what is sensible), and hope that you last long enough to gather lots of money and get lots of management fees and traders' options before a hostile market environment comes along. Pro traders are effectively unethically exploiting clients' risk-blindness, or are simply risk-blind themselves (most likely the latter).

If all traders were forced to take sensible levels of risk with other people's money, i.e. max drawdowns that the clients can actually withstand (which IMO is 20% or less), arguably only about 2-3% of currently operating hedge funds and traders would still be able to make more than 10% per annum compound.

The inescapable realisation is that almost the entire hedge fund and trading industry is based on smoke and mirrors.


I do not think the traders are blind to the risk, they just pretend that their models did not see the risk.

This scam was observed noted and magnified by the mortgage lending scam which wall street and Euro bankers used to pillage treasuries all over the western world.

Note how it followed ltcm and neiderhoffer.

Our models did not forsee the risk?

Models were not used to make money they were used for deniablility.
 
Quote from neke:

Based on this analogy it is not even sensible to invest (no leverage) in the market. The annualised return of the market (DJIA) over the last century had been about 10%, and with max drawdown of 90% during the depression, the sharpe ratio is abysmal. Is that what you mean?

Partly. The stock market is certainly a terrible risk-adjusted absolute return vehicle by itself. However, as part of a diversified portfolio, it works just fine. For example, a portfolio of 50% long stocks, 25% gold, 25% long-term treasuries, held up reasonably in the Great Depression. The stock portion lost 40% but gold and government bonds increased substantially, leading to a maximum drawdown of less than 20%, in the worst market event in US history. Reinvesting dividends and treasury coupons, the 5 year return from 1929-1934 was positive.

So, it still makes sense to invest in the market. It just doesn't make sense to go 100% long stocks, and then lose 90% if the market falls 90% again. Better to be 50% long stocks, and 50% long uncorrelated or inversely correlated assets. You make less most years, but your long-run returns are still good because of avoiding total disasters, and thanks to the benefits of rebalancing.
 
with a ton of OPM you can just average into anything you want and eventually make money.

And when it ends up going against you, then you hear about funds blowing up.

Pretty easy.

It's much easier for fund managers than for individual traders.

Plus, when the funds blow up, the managers still get paid so they don't really care.
 
Quote from 1a2b3cppp:


...
Plus, when the funds blow up, the managers still get paid so they don't really care
...

Even better, when their current fund is so far below the high water mark that it looks like they'll never be able to charge more fees they simply close it and start a new one.

The word 'shameless' doesn't even come close.
 
Unless u close up shop when u hit your expected max drawdown
at some point you are going to have to put money at risk again, and when u do this you could aggravate the drawdown before things turn around. (assuming they eventually do).
 
Hi,
You are making a lot of assumptions. One that I question is that the drawdowns are even viewed by the manager as excessive. For a fund manager performance is often all about how they are doing compared to the market, so from a fund manager's perspective, I think the maximum expected drawdown is less than or equal to whatever the market drawdown happens to be. If the fund lost 49% and the market lost 50%, then from a fund manager's perspective, they are ahead. At least that's how I think many see it.

Don
 
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Some basic assumptions, if recognised by a trader, should make this almost impossible unless the trader is stupid, incompetent, or taking way more risk than he should. Here they are:

1. Whatever approach you use, at some point you will run into a market environment that is very hostile to it.

2. When this happens, a large majority of your bets will hit their max possible loss (which, hopefully, is your stop-loss point on each trade, rather than a price of $0 or $margin-call).

3. You will thus earn your max expected drawdown under these conditions.

Therefore, under no circumstances should a competent trader with proper risk control ever lose more than their maximum expected drawdown.

I don't see how your conclusion follows. Maximum expected drawdown is just that - the actual peak to trough drawdown in any given case is known only in hindsight, and could be more, less, or exactly on target.

There's no iron law of the universe that the market can't take the best, most highly-skilled trader in the world and drain his account to zero, at whatever rate is permitted by maximum daily/weekly/monthly loss limits.
 
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Therefore, under no circumstances should a competent trader with proper risk control ever lose more than their maximum expected drawdown.

Yet if you look at most pro traders and fund managers, almost all of them have had max drawdowns greater than they expected. But as I have shown above, this is virtually impossible if you stick to the simple and obvious assumptions above.
You are assuming

a) a fluid market with no gap downs
b) perfectly liquid market conditions where the liquidation of a position doesn't cause further deterioration of your own risk parameters, forcing you to liquidate more

Treating stop prices on all positions as a guarantee for a certain max DD is unrealistic to begin with. Any trader who tells his clients they won't be at risk of losing more than X% is either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about. Or both.
 
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