Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious?

[davroz]

Quote from 030985:

Hello to everyone,

Firstly I would like to really thank 'TFF' members for this thread and some other similar threads, and actually thank everyone who took on his time to help or give some clues, or even just trying to go forward.

I hesitated creating a thread but as the idea to post comes to me when reading this thread ( for 3rd time ) and considering that I still don't know the obvious I decided to post here. It may be of no value but I thought that maybe writing it may help to do some connections in what is between my two ears.

It has been several years now that I am trying to figure this out, and sometimes I really wonder how much time I will need to 'get it'.

Though, without wanting to sound pretentious I think that I may see on a forum who is able and who is not able ( I mean as a trader ), who I should pay attention to and the others.

What I noticed is that the posters 'who knows', who are 'able', and profit'able', they are few ( which is not a surprise ). And whatever the different method each one of them may use, if you read them carefully you can notice that globally they tend to say the same things, and these same things sounds like very simple principles as this one "Market can either go up, go down or sideways". Or "buy low, sell high".
Stating simple (apparently) principles like this will get them another thing they tend to have in common, which is : for 1 individual ready to listen to them, there will be perhaps 9 individuals ( not always but generally 'not able' ) who will criticize what they say or just go "and ?".

Not in particular order, and maybe a bit deformed, the following is some 'principles' or 'clues' if I may say so, that people whom I think are 'able' and profit'able' tend to affirm :

- Use what is between your 2 ears
- Your eyes might be the most important tool : trade what is happening in front of you
- It is more about yourself than anything else
- Learn how market works ( and it seems it is not about knowing about markets interactions or institutional players or hedging etc.. )
- To learn how market works, you have to learn to think differently
- Ask yourself the right questions
- There is something so 'simple', 'obvious', that when you will see it, you will wonder how come you did not see it before
- Market can only do 3 things : Up, down, or sideways
- Buy low, sell high
- Everything in public domains, books, and all, are almost of no value
- Think outside the box
- You have to design yourself your own way, your own edge
- Importance of the entry in order to get the lowest risk and a superior reward
- Time can be an important piece of the puzzle
- For some : Exit is the next entry signal

I may miss some, but it gives an idea. So I guess that now, my problem and certainly a problem for others, is how you come to think differently, in order to get 'how market works'. I stare at naked charts for hours and hours trying to decipher price moves. But I think I can say that even if I am at it for some years, I still don't know how markets work. So, if there should be some question maybe it would be : Will 'just' staring at naked ( dead or live ) charts by thinking hard will get me to ask the right questions in order to learn how market works ? How may I learn to think "differently" than what I am doing now ?

030985

( Thank you for reading, and sorry if there any English grammar mistakes )

This is an enigmatic thread, I doubt the OP expected it to go on and on as it has.

The strange TFF, The Famous Five one of which incidently is a mongrel, or better perhaps The Furious Five (kung fu panda).

Why is the obvious not so obvious - means why do some people see what is, whilst others don't see no matter how much they try.

There is the thread title, and then there is the original post by the OP with a specific question. The answer to the original post has been stated openly, and repeatedly. So why do some people still seek an answer when its already been given. Its because they don't recognise the answer for what it is and instead focus on what they want to see. They want to see a secret, which they think is hidden and whose existence is apparently hinted at by the thread title. They want to believe there is a golden key to unlock a trading secret, and that they can find thay key by solving the riddle of the charts.

The key is already within you the trader, and how you think.

The fantasy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=san61qTwWsU

 

[iamdom]

The question is why is the obvious not always obvious? It becomes obvious afterwards from your new perspective.
The obvious appears when you let go of habitual and automatic ways of thinking. It is when you let go of expectations and beliefs that creativity is allowed to come forth. The flow, the now or whatever you want to call it happens when the relation between subject and object is suspended or conceptual awareness (duality) is paused. Of course this cannot be understood conceptually nor can you enter the flow conceptually. Star athletes, or other exceptional people can access this place more than most. They are not smarter or harder working than us. Effort and struggle is the conceptual mind. An awareness is needed and this allows creativity to enter the world and take form. The ego is the block to this awareness. So how do you enter this place? "You" are already there.

 

[Redneck]

Quote from 030985:

Will 'just' staring at naked ( dead or live ) charts by thinking hard will get me to ask the right questions in order to learn how market works ?

I’ll say this;

Everything necessary is on a chart – always was… always will be

Thinking harder only gives you headaches…, stress…, makes you pissed off.., frustrated…, lash out in anger…, cry in desperation… even try to make deals with the God, and/ or possibly even the devil

(experience talking btw)

Quote from 030985:

How may I learn to think "differently" than what I am doing now ?

By letting go and setting your mind free….… (we can only progress to what our lowest level of thought allows)

And I don’t mean positive thinking… or having perpetual happy thoughts…, or any of that crap…

I mean truly freeing your mind – by shedding all (every fucking stinking bit) of the bullshit

====================================

Not only will you’ll see the mkt differently…, but your self… your loved ones… people…, the world – everything / and all of it

You will see things for what they are… no longer for what you think.., want…, or hope – they are

==================================

Know, that if you can successfully complete this journey – as God is my witness – trading becomes easier than you could ever imagine..., or hope it to be


But, also know this – this journey will more than make up for it… it’ll be a repeated kick in the nuts... it will make you question everything to your very core… it will tear you down to your very core – and it will force you to resurrect yourself and re-create your beliefs…

=======================================
Recall the saying;

It doesn't matter what you think…, only how


Well you’ll never change the how… until… and unless – you first change the what…

And ultimately the what – needs to be simple, complete, and absolute honesty & truth – about everything (and most will never get there)

Now…, can some trade successfully and never bother with the above – I would imagine so… but then I ain't them – so I did what I had to

===================

I admit the above sounds like utter guru bullshit – take it… or leave it – your choice

But you did ask how to think differently… and I've told ya…

btw come Monday – I’ll make money without even batting an eye – may even have a few losers along the way – or not – woopity flippin doo da


Last thought;

Your grammar is fine... your post - even better imo

Success in your Journey Sir – should you decide to take it (your ass follows - wherever your mind leads)



RN

 

[Redneck]

Quote from burt_schroder:

Does knowing how the market works guarantee profits?

For me - absolutely it does

But..., guarantee - does not mean all my trades will be winners 100% of the time

RN

 

[Redneck]

Quote from davroz:

This is an enigmatic thread

To most I suppose it is

But then it was never meant for most

Quote from davroz:

I doubt the OP expected it to go on and on as it has.

Rest assured - he is fine with it

Quote from davroz:

The key is already within you the trader, and how you think.

Yup - always was... always will be

RN

 

[Redneck]

Quote from iamdom:

So how do you enter this place? "You" are already there.

If only we could open our eyes and see it

=================

Never have I traveled so far - only to end back where I started - as I have when starting to learn this silly little thing called trading

Although - my eyes are infinitely clearer now

RN

 

[030985]

Quote from davroz:

There is the thread title, and then there is the original post by the OP with a specific question. The answer to the original post has been stated openly, and repeatedly. So why do some people still seek an answer when its already been given. Its because they don't recognise the answer for what it is and instead focus on what they want to see. They want to see a secret, which they think is hidden and whose existence is apparently hinted at by the thread title. They want to believe there is a golden key to unlock a trading secret, and that they can find thay key by solving the riddle of the charts.

The key is already within you the trader, and how you think.

Thank you for your reply. We agree and as far as I am concerned I do not seek a 'secret' per se, but I want, as you say, to be able to 'recognize' this answer. Which means that for now I may not focus on the right things and my thinking process may not be appropriate. I think an important word in the first post of the thread is "pre-requisite".

Quote from iamdom:

The question is why is the obvious not always obvious? It becomes obvious afterwards from your new perspective.
The obvious appears when you let go of habitual and automatic ways of thinking. It is when you let go of expectations and beliefs that creativity is allowed to come forth. The flow, the now or whatever you want to call it happens when the relation between subject and object is suspended or conceptual awareness (duality) is paused. Of course this cannot be understood conceptually nor can you enter the flow conceptually. Star athletes, or other exceptional people can access this place more than most. They are not smarter or harder working than us. Effort and struggle is the conceptual mind. An awareness is needed and this allows creativity to enter the world and take form. The ego is the block to this awareness. So how do you enter this place? "You" are already there.

And this is what is puzzling : it is as if I could understand all this and see the point, but without knowing how to 'apply' it ( not that it is something we apply or what, but maybe you see what I mean )

Quote from Redneck:

I’ll say this;

Everything necessary is on a chart – always was… always will be

Thinking harder only gives you headaches…, stress…, makes you pissed off.., frustrated…, lash out in anger…, cry in desperation… even try to make deals with the God, and/ or possibly even the devil

(experience talking btw)




By letting go and setting your mind free….… (we can only progress to what our lowest level of thought allows)

And I don’t mean positive thinking… or having perpetual happy thoughts…, or any of that crap…

I mean truly freeing your mind – by shedding all (every fucking stinking bit) of the bullshit

====================================

Not only will you’ll see the mkt differently…, but your self… your loved ones… people…, the world – everything / and all of it

You will see things for what they are… no longer for what you think.., want…, or hope – they are

==================================

Know, that if you can successfully complete this journey – as God is my witness – trading becomes easier than you could ever imagine..., or hope it to be


But, also know this – this journey will more than make up for it… it’ll be a repeated kick in the nuts... it will make you question everything to your very core… it will tear you down to your very core – and it will force you to resurrect yourself and re-create your beliefs…

=======================================
Recall the saying;

It doesn't matter what you think…, only how


Well you’ll never change the how… until… and unless – you first change the what…

And ultimately the what – needs to be simple, complete, and absolute honesty & truth – about everything (and most will never get there)

Now…, can some trade successfully and never bother with the above – I would imagine so… but then I ain't them – so I did what I had to

===================

I admit the above sounds like utter guru bullshit – take it… or leave it – your choice

But you did ask how to think differently… and I've told ya…

btw come Monday – I’ll make money without even batting an eye – may even have a few losers along the way – or not – woopity flippin doo da


Last thought;

Your grammar is fine... your post - even better imo

Success in your Journey Sir – should you decide to take it (your ass follows - wherever your mind leads)



RN

Thank you Sir for this reply, it is really appreciated.

Yes, maybe it will sound 'guru-ish' to some, but I know there is no mystery or magic tricks involved, and the words you use, you use them because that is how it is and there is no really other way to say it. It will make perfect sense for people who are at the same 'level' or 'stage' if I may say so.
May I say it is a bit like 'getting' wisdom ( I am not sure of the word to use ), or the flow of things, some seemingly simple sentences with simple words make sense only when we reach a certain 'level' or way of thinking and it will never make sense for most of people, however it is so obvious .
Well, maybe that's not this at all, but that is what your words make me think of.
For now I am still on the path ( never ending one, with some steps more important than others, maybe as the flow of price and some levels more important than others ) and your words certainly make me think the 'what' and the 'how'.

Best wishes, Sir.

030985

 

[note]

Quote from Redneck:

Remember my goal – get you thinking for yourself

You’re saying enter on the close of a NRB / open of the next bar – with a stop just the other side of the NRB (the other side being opposite of our trade direction)

Sounds reasonable – however there will be a few conditions we need to be cautious of… and observant for

What would these conditions be?

This NRB should form at extreme of a swing ? so that i can rapidly move in other direction if it has to.
I can put bollinger bands to check this swing high. but again sometime it crosses the higher band after getting NR. so this may not be decisive factor.

Should check for any support / resistance line where NR is forming.


There are other conditions where a bar could be labeled narrow – what could these conditions be?
Are you suggesting about doji ?

Before this i was not looking at candlestick patterns, but now i started understanding them. looks like its language of price.

Different TFs can contradict – So which do we follow?

We are prone to questioning what we see…, not believe it…, even trade in the opposite direction – You suffer from this?


I guess, i should go with higher TF as my guide and play in lower TF. but this will give me less number of entries, but then it will have more probability of winning.


There are some other tools for direction finding that you may find valuable – take a shot at naming more


I checked some, but ADX (DI+ , DI-) seems to be fitting criteria, as it just says if higher highs are forming or not. If they are forming then its trend.

Other one i saw was ATR, but that does not say about trend, it is more about range, but i can use that also to see if range is increasing just after or when i get NR.



On another note,

Please describe your platform layout… if you’re hesitant to (possibly thinking you may give something away) – make one up (a layout)


I did not had any layout so far, but i made one adding some indicator, also i think i should use MT4 to use better indicator.
This one is just from my broker (oanda)

I have added layout with entries on it;

 

[IANAE]

Quote from TheMagican:

I know exactly what NYSE was talking about.Exactly!

I even traded it,seems robust, but not enough for the 5-6 daily ATR.

Good luck in cracking it,though.

I also know. I'm not attracted to day trading so it was more of an intellectual challenge for me to crack it. I don't think it's suited to the longer timeframes I use - weekly or monthly.

I also wonder if it's peculiar to the NYSE because I can't say I've observed the same tendencies in stocks on my local exchange the FTSE. That may have something to do with the fact that in the UK stocks are subject to a 0.5% Government purchase tax (stamp duty).

Even though I don't plan to use the technique itself, I gained a lot more than this from reading the thread.

It's an eye opener if you open your eyes and your mind.

 

[TheMagican]

Quote from IANAE:

I also know. I'm not attracted to day trading so it was more of an intellectual challenge for me to crack it. I don't think it's suited to the longer timeframes I use - weekly or monthly.

I also wonder if it's peculiar to the NYSE because I can't say I've observed the same tendencies in stocks on my local exchange the FTSE. That may have something to do with the fact that in the UK stocks are subject to a 0.5% Government purchase tax (stamp duty).

Even though I don't plan to use the technique itself, I gained a lot more than this from reading the thread.

It's an eye opener if you open your eyes and your mind.

you got it all wrong IT IS for a shorter time period.