I won't argue with your numbers except that there just aren't many $15/hr jobs to get. That's why the 25,000 applicants for $10/hr jobs at Walmart near Chicago. There are many, many people in that $6 to $10/hr range just barely surviving, and those jobs typically don't come with benefits like healthcare. Imagine if you had to raise a child on that, or pay daycare. Things would get real ugly, real quick.
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Why I don't buy the 4.5% Unemployment Rate
- Thread starter crgarcia
- Start date
I won't argue with your numbers except that there just aren't many $15/hr jobs to get. That's why the 25,000 applicants for $10/hr jobs at Walmart near Chicago. There are many, many people in that $6 to $10/hr range just barely surviving, and those jobs typically don't come with benefits like healthcare. Imagine if you had to raise a child on that, or pay daycare. Things would get real ugly, real quick.
Quote from thriftybob:
I won't argue with your numbers except that there just aren't many $15/hr jobs to get. That's why the 25,000 applicants for $10/hr jobs at Walmart near Chicago. There are many, many people in that $6 to $10/hr range just barely surviving, and those jobs typically don't come with benefits like healthcare. Imagine if you had to raise a child on that, or pay daycare. Things would get real ugly, real quick.
Well, a couple points here. One, I think you and I might have a philosophically different opinion here on how to handle the cost of labor. Have you actually seen these people working these jobs? We are really scraping the bottom of their barrel here. Many of these people can't even spell out their own last name. I would argue they are not even worth $10 an hour. Yes, I understand there are some on here with left leaning beliefs that would argue that all people, regardless of their ability, should earn a certain minimum wage. I know I will come across as an asshole here, but I am not one of those people. It violates the very principle of the free market system where one is paid based on their value and their replacement cost.
Two, we actually have a severe labor shortage in this country. Not for $10 or $15 an hour jobs, but for highly skilled jobs. Almost all surveys I have seen of fortune 500 CEO's when asked what the biggest challenge is for them, almost all of them have said finding skill labor. It's so bad in this country that we are actually importing them from Europe and Asia because our labor force is not educated enough or qualified to take these jobs.
So the jobs actually ARE there. We just don't have the labor force to fill them. But back to the first point, I just have to disagree with you here. If you were running those companies, would you want the burden to fall on you to be forced to pay these people $15 or $20 an hour when most of them have zero skills, zero abilities, are completely unreliable and a hindrance to your company? Be honest. Would you really pay them. Most people on here will jump up and down and scream for worker's benefits, but few if any will actually be willing to write the check from their own pocket to pay these people.
Quote from Maverick74:
You guys are insane. How can you make that statement with a straight face that one cannot live on 30k a year? Sure, maybe that would be tough in manhattan, San Francisco, or Boston but in 98% of the country, once can easily live on 30k a year. In fact, on 30k a year the average person can get a mortgage and a car payment. Seriously this site never ceases to amaze me.
You need to redo your math. The populations of just NY, Boston, LA, SF, San Jose, Honolulu, Seattle, and San Diego metro areas is 10% of the US population. Those are just a few of the expensive places in the US.
There's no way you can "easily live" on 30k in 98% of the country. Maybe 2/3 of the country.
Quote from deviltrader:
You need to redo your math. The populations of just NY, Boston, LA, SF, San Jose, Honolulu, Seattle, and San Diego metro areas is 10% of the US population. Those are just a few of the expensive places in the US.
There's no way you can "easily live" on 30k in 98% of the country. Maybe 2/3 of the country.
No, I disagree. Yes, those "cities" you mentioned are generally expensive but there are places in all those cities you mentioned where one can live on 30k.
Quote from Maverick74:
Almost all surveys I have seen of fortune 500 CEO's when asked what the biggest challenge is for them, almost all of them have said finding skill labor. It's so bad in this country that we are actually importing them from Europe and Asia because our labor force is not educated enough or qualified to take these jobs.
So the jobs actually ARE there. We just don't have the labor force to fill them.
Don't believe the shit you hear from industry. For as long as I can remember, they've been saying there's a shortgage of skilled engineers and scientists, and our colleges don't produce enough qualified employees so we need more immigrants to make up the slack. That's their way to convince Congress and the public we need to increase H1 visas.
Companies love H1 employees. They pay them 30% less, and H1 people work harder and complain less because it's virtually impossible for them to leave the company.
Quote from deviltrader:
Don't believe the shit you hear from industry. For as long as I can remember, they've been saying there's a shortgage of skilled engineers and scientists, and our colleges don't produce enough qualified employees so we need more immigrants to make up the slack. That's their way to convince Congress and the public we need to increase H1 visas.
Companies love H1 employees. They pay them 30% less, and H1 people work harder and complain less because it's virtually impossible for them to leave the company.
Actually I believe it because when you actually meet our graduates who supposedly have degrees in science and engineering, you realize that these people are idiots.
Let me expand on this. I run a prop trading office in Chicago and I get a ton of resumes from engineers and computer science people. These people are seriously, I mean seriously lacking skills man. I would agree with you at first glance, but having met these people face to face, I don't know. I think we can do better.
not in those lower-type jobs, no...and that is the free market talking, especially when you have 25K applicants for 350 jobs (71:1 ratio!) Thus the minimums can easily be paid. It's the case with any of these jobs, from small businesses to Walmarts...too many applying for too few (and many of the many making it a 2nd, 3rd, 4th job)...and willing to work for those lower wages because there "isn't much else they can do." Yet, they don't take personal responsibility, think outside the box, and try to improve their lives either...kind of a nice vicious circle, no?
Seeing these types of people who work these jobs is amazing and in some cases mind-bending. It makes me very fortunate to have the type of mind I have and how I can actually think for myself and sometimes out of the box...and although it took me some time, to fully realize that if you don't like your results, you must work at it and change your methods and your thoughts...down the road, you will get rewarded for taking those chances.
I believe it isn't *too* hard to live on 30K/year...it can be done with keeping the frills more on the minimal side (some can be allowed, yes), but to try and live on less ($25K, $20K, less) is really rough (granted if said job is 40 hours a week at ~$10/hour, which is another thing on 'part-time' gigs when your hours fluctuate)...any major unexpected expense (car repairs are usually a good one) practically pushes them over the edge.
Maverick, I would just be interested to see how your friend does some years down the road because he isn't really "saving any money" now.
Seeing these types of people who work these jobs is amazing and in some cases mind-bending. It makes me very fortunate to have the type of mind I have and how I can actually think for myself and sometimes out of the box...and although it took me some time, to fully realize that if you don't like your results, you must work at it and change your methods and your thoughts...down the road, you will get rewarded for taking those chances.
I believe it isn't *too* hard to live on 30K/year...it can be done with keeping the frills more on the minimal side (some can be allowed, yes), but to try and live on less ($25K, $20K, less) is really rough (granted if said job is 40 hours a week at ~$10/hour, which is another thing on 'part-time' gigs when your hours fluctuate)...any major unexpected expense (car repairs are usually a good one) practically pushes them over the edge.
Maverick, I would just be interested to see how your friend does some years down the road because he isn't really "saving any money" now.
Quote from MattF:
Maverick, I would just be interested to see how your friend does some years down the road because he isn't really "saving any money" now.
Well, he is trading futures prop. So who knows, he could be making 250k next year. The guy has upside obviously. He's on a 50/50 split. I'm not too concerned about him.
I am a little amazed that all the super traders on this thread would be concerned about wage scales in this country. I have a solution. You should each hire an assistant (or two) and pay them $50-$60K a year (or whatever you consider a liveable wage) plus full health care benefits and full retirement benefits. Just think of all the good you would be doing.
This country is certainly not perfect but people are clammering to get in here in droves and very few people are leaving.
This country is certainly not perfect but people are clammering to get in here in droves and very few people are leaving.
Quote from Maverick74:
Well, a couple points here. One, I think you and I might have a philosophically different opinion here on how to handle the cost of labor. Have you actually seen these people working these jobs? We are really scraping the bottom of their barrel here. Many of these people can't even spell out their own last name. I would argue they are not even worth $10 an hour. Yes, I understand there are some on here with left leaning beliefs that would argue that all people, regardless of their ability, should earn a certain minimum wage. I know I will come across as an asshole here, but I am not one of those people. It violates the very principle of the free market system where one is paid based on their value and their replacement cost.
Two, we actually have a severe labor shortage in this country. Not for $10 or $15 an hour jobs, but for highly skilled jobs. Almost all surveys I have seen of fortune 500 CEO's when asked what the biggest challenge is for them, almost all of them have said finding skill labor. It's so bad in this country that we are actually importing them from Europe and Asia because our labor force is not educated enough or qualified to take these jobs.
So the jobs actually ARE there. We just don't have the labor force to fill them. But back to the first point, I just have to disagree with you here. If you were running those companies, would you want the burden to fall on you to be forced to pay these people $15 or $20 an hour when most of them have zero skills, zero abilities, are completely unreliable and a hindrance to your company? Be honest. Would you really pay them. Most people on here will jump up and down and scream for worker's benefits, but few if any will actually be willing to write the check from their own pocket to pay these people.
Maybe things have improved significantly in the last few years. I agree the $6.50 an hour folks are really lacking skills, but my point is that pay levels are basically around 75% of what they were pre 9/11 for 4 yr degree people. I don't think I could get $35/hr + benefits, and thats with a degree and 30 yrs experience. Its basically a waste of time even considering taking a job because you know their priority #1 is to outsource your job to India or bring in a cheap H1b person to replace you, asap.
Its a dog eat dog world anymore, and I've made it my "job" to make my money from their pension funds mistakes.