Then short it. Obviously the market thinks you're very wrong.
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Why every country stores gold?
- Thread starter GloriaBrown
- Start date
Then short it. Obviously the market thinks you're very wrong.
That sounds like a fun project. I bet the fumes and waste products would be good on my vegetable garden. Those old gold tailings in the watershed of western towns are a real health blessing for people into heavy metal toxicity.
Your stomach produces muriatic acid with pH of 1 or 2. Unsurprisingly, you can stick your bare arm up to your armpit in HCl with no damage (uh, wash it off after trying this). I've done it. If you doubt this, go on to youtube and look for the videos of people pouring HCl on themselves. Peroxide is used by girls to change the color of their hair. These substances are sold to the public in reasonably concentrated form, cheaply and in large volumes because they are fairly harmless to humans.
The amount of fumes you will produce is small compared to the fumes produced from the intended use of the products. HCl is dumped on to driveways in order to dissolve the top layer and make them look nicer, for example. If you want to control the fume production to near zero, ask for the advice of any chemical engineer. He will tell you how to design your equipment (in your kitchen for example) so as to produce no fumes. Or google "scrubber" and think about it.
The metals from the PCB (mostly nickel and copper) are more "base" than gold but more noble than iron. So when you add some junk iron (old nails, etc.) to the solution the iron will dissolve while the copper and nickel precipitate out. Pour the solution off and dump it in the drain (uh, test it for gold before you throw it away as it's possible to leave some in solution). Take the precipitate off, save it until the price of copper goes through the roof, or put it in a baggy and stick it in the trash. Or just add the iron and let the whole thing slowly dry off. Either way you'll have a very small amount of stuff that is more mild in the municipal waste disposal stream than the usual crap that comes from homes. Putting the (properly diluted) iron solution into your garden is similar to the result you'd get from planting a package of nails.
Of course if you're going to handle thousands of tons you'll have to do it better. For example, because of EPA regulations, a steel pickling plant can't put more than about 1000 tons of chlorine gas into the air per year, if I recall correctly. The couple of ounces of chlorine gas you produce won't be noticed. It might smell like someone disinfecting a swimming pool.
As far as I know, the main problem with "old gold tailings" is that the old-timers used mercury to capture gold. Because of improved separation processes, the old gold tailings are being reprocessed by small time operators. I've seen gold nuggets with such high mercury content that their color is changed from those mines. The (small-time) miners remove the mercury by roasting those nuggets in a tin can at the fireplace. I've suggested that they capture the mercury, it's easy enough to do, but they don't listen to me. I'm guessing that packing the tin can with charcoal or better, activated carbon, would be enough to get almost all of the vaporized mercury coming from the nuggets at the bottom of the can.
There's also a secondary problem with old gold tailings and that is that the (millions of tons of) waste rock is highly mineralized. This is not comparable to what's going on with amateurs making gold and ending up with a few pounds of waste that is easily put in a landfill.
Your stomach produces muriatic acid with pH of 1 or 2. Unsurprisingly, you can stick your bare arm up to your armpit in HCl with no damage (uh, wash it off after trying this). I've done it. If you doubt this, go on to youtube and look for the videos of people pouring HCl on themselves. Peroxide is used by girls to change the color of their hair. These substances are sold to the public in reasonably concentrated form, cheaply and in large volumes because they are fairly harmless to humans.
The amount of fumes you will produce is small compared to the fumes produced from the intended use of the products. HCl is dumped on to driveways in order to dissolve the top layer and make them look nicer, for example. If you want to control the fume production to near zero, ask for the advice of any chemical engineer. He will tell you how to design your equipment (in your kitchen for example) so as to produce no fumes. Or google "scrubber" and think about it.
The metals from the PCB (mostly nickel and copper) are more "base" than gold but more noble than iron. So when you add some junk iron (old nails, etc.) to the solution the iron will dissolve while the copper and nickel precipitate out. Pour the solution off and dump it in the drain (uh, test it for gold before you throw it away as it's possible to leave some in solution). Take the precipitate off, save it until the price of copper goes through the roof, or put it in a baggy and stick it in the trash. Or just add the iron and let the whole thing slowly dry off. Either way you'll have a very small amount of stuff that is more mild in the municipal waste disposal stream than the usual crap that comes from homes. Putting the (properly diluted) iron solution into your garden is similar to the result you'd get from planting a package of nails.
Of course if you're going to handle thousands of tons you'll have to do it better. For example, because of EPA regulations, a steel pickling plant can't put more than about 1000 tons of chlorine gas into the air per year, if I recall correctly. The couple of ounces of chlorine gas you produce won't be noticed. It might smell like someone disinfecting a swimming pool.
As far as I know, the main problem with "old gold tailings" is that the old-timers used mercury to capture gold. Because of improved separation processes, the old gold tailings are being reprocessed by small time operators. I've seen gold nuggets with such high mercury content that their color is changed from those mines. The (small-time) miners remove the mercury by roasting those nuggets in a tin can at the fireplace. I've suggested that they capture the mercury, it's easy enough to do, but they don't listen to me. I'm guessing that packing the tin can with charcoal or better, activated carbon, would be enough to get almost all of the vaporized mercury coming from the nuggets at the bottom of the can.
There's also a secondary problem with old gold tailings and that is that the (millions of tons of) waste rock is highly mineralized. This is not comparable to what's going on with amateurs making gold and ending up with a few pounds of waste that is easily put in a landfill.
I do hate the EPA. I miss the taste of mercury and PCBs in my drinking water. Soon with the new regs on antique energy generation like coal fired power plants we will no longer be able to enjoy the benefits of coal ash in the air.....So sad.
ideal form of money doesn't explain why it worth anything in current time. No one uses gold as real currency anymore.
Hello Gloria:
You ask in reply to my answer to your first question about gold:
“ideal form of money doesn't explain why it worth anything in current time. No one uses gold as real currency anymore.”
An excellent question which goes to the heart of economics, namely the theory of value.
Ask your self why would a woman prefer a diamond engagement ring as opposed to a loaf of bread ? Think about that question for awhile before continuing and see if you can come up with the answer.
The would be bride might say to the man who proposed to her after throwing the loaf of bread in his face that his loaf of bread is worthless. If he tries to explain the value of bread versus a diamond to justify his action she will insist that he is wrong because a diamond ring is worth more than a loaf of bread. Which brings us back to your question about gold why is it "worth anything in current time". Why are diamonds or gold or silver worth more than bread or a glass of water ? You can't eat diamonds or gold but you can eat bread and drink water. So bread has more utility value than gold or diamonds wouldn’t you agree ? So what does determine the price or worth or value of any thing ?
The price of any thing in the market is determined by the consumer. “The consumer confers value by seeking to acquire it. Hence, the value of a thing is never objective, but always subjective… The monetary price of a thing is not the measure of its value, but only an expression of it.”
See
Essentials of Economics by Faustino Ballvé
https://mises.org/library/essentials-economics
If you think that because “No one uses gold as real currency anymore.” therefore it should not have any value then perhaps I was not clear in my previous post explaining why gold is the ideal form of money. Gold has value not because it is used as money it is used as money because it has value. While officially gold is not used as money it is money since it can be used as a medium of exchange.
If you want to know why consumers value gold so much more than other more utilitarian commodities then that answer is not a part of economics. Economics is based on human actions which can be observed not on theories of the inner psyche of the consumer.
Your question also leads to another topic called the paradox of value or diamond-water paradox. Why do diamonds cost so much and water which is a necessity of life costs so little ? Or you can say why does gold cost so much and water so little ?
The marginal-utility theory of value resolves this paradox.
“…diamonds are scarce and the demand for them was great, the possession of additional units was a high priority. This meant their marginal utility was high, and consumers were willing to pay a comparatively high price for them. Water is much less valuable only because it is much less scarce, and the buyers of water possess enough to satisfy their most pressing need for it. Additional purchases of water beyond people’s need for it will be of decreasing benefit or utility and will eventually lose all utility beyond the point at which thirst is completely satisfied.”
See the below for the complete explanation of Marginal Utility.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/364750/marginal-utility
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Hello Gloria:
You ask in reply to my answer to your first question about gold:
“ideal form of money doesn't explain why it worth anything in current time. No one uses gold as real currency anymore.”
An excellent question which goes to the heart of economics, namely the theory of value.
Ask your self why would a woman prefer a diamond engagement ring as opposed to a loaf of bread ? Think about that question for awhile before continuing and see if you can come up with the answer.
The would be bride might say to the man who proposed to her after throwing the loaf of bread in his face that his loaf of bread is worthless. If he tries to explain the value of bread versus a diamond to justify his action she will insist that he is wrong because a diamond ring is worth more than a loaf of bread. Which brings us back to your question about gold why is it "worth anything in current time". Why are diamonds or gold or silver worth more than bread or a glass of water ? You can't eat diamonds or gold but you can eat bread and drink water. So bread has more utility value than gold or diamonds wouldn’t you agree ? So what does determine the price or worth or value of any thing ?
The price of any thing in the market is determined by the consumer. “The consumer confers value by seeking to acquire it. Hence, the value of a thing is never objective, but always subjective… The monetary price of a thing is not the measure of its value, but only an expression of it.”
See
Essentials of Economics by Faustino Ballvé
https://mises.org/library/essentials-economics
If you think that because “No one uses gold as real currency anymore.” therefore it should not have any value then perhaps I was not clear in my previous post explaining why gold is the ideal form of money. Gold has value not because it is used as money it is used as money because it has value. While officially gold is not used as money it is money since it can be used as a medium of exchange.
If you want to know why consumers value gold so much more than other more utilitarian commodities then that answer is not a part of economics. Economics is based on human actions which can be observed not on theories of the inner psyche of the consumer.
Your question also leads to another topic called the paradox of value or diamond-water paradox. Why do diamonds cost so much and water which is a necessity of life costs so little ? Or you can say why does gold cost so much and water so little ?
The marginal-utility theory of value resolves this paradox.
“…diamonds are scarce and the demand for them was great, the possession of additional units was a high priority. This meant their marginal utility was high, and consumers were willing to pay a comparatively high price for them. Water is much less valuable only because it is much less scarce, and the buyers of water possess enough to satisfy their most pressing need for it. Additional purchases of water beyond people’s need for it will be of decreasing benefit or utility and will eventually lose all utility beyond the point at which thirst is completely satisfied.”
See the below for the complete explanation of Marginal Utility.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/364750/marginal-utility
diamond engagement ring as opposed to a loaf of bread because there is one company dominate the diamond market for many many decades, then the company decided to do serious marketing to connect diamond and marriage.
diamond engagement ring as opposed to a loaf of bread because there is one company dominate the diamond market for many many decades, then the company decided to do serious marketing to connect diamond and marriage.
Actually De Beers had lots of diamonds and not enough market so they hired a Madison Ave ad agency in 1937 to "create" the need for diamond engagement rings.
Actually De Beers had lots of diamonds and not enough market so they hired a Madison Ave ad agency in 1937 to "create" the need for diamond engagement rings.
There is no "Diamond future" mainly because De Beers controls the price anyway.
LOL @ fantasy BS from most posters.
Most are like parrots & apply no critical reasoning
First, Gold has never been the actual medium of exchange (one of the definitions of money).
No one is going to use a scale or whatever test to measure the % purity of gold in the piece of gold to determine the value when buying a loaf of bread or even if it's fake or real.
Not back in 200 AD let alone today. LOL
Divisible? Convenient? NOT
Did it occur to you ivory tower fools in your perfect world that there would be imitations (see later) if gold (or anything with actual tangible value) were used as an actual medium of exchange?
GOLD was by no means the actual medium of exchange even back in 200 AD Roman times or when coins were first used
Back in Roman gold Aureus of Septimus Severus (~ 200 AD), the actual Roman coin contained 7.1 g of gold (ie price of raw gold worth less than coin's face value).
An imitation coin struck in India weighed 11.3 g compared to the Roman coin
The fact that the imitation weighs more illustrates that CONFIDENCE in Roman coinage extended far beyond its borders.
If it were gold that was the medium of exchange, then (1) there would be no need for India to imitate Roman coinage to gain acceptance, and (2) the raw gold should have been worth more than the Roman coin.
Throughout history going back to when coins were first used, the DOMINANT ECONOMY'S CURRENCY has always been imitated - regardless of the actual worth (in weight of whatever raw precious metal).
It also reflects that the dominant economy’s currency is ALWAYS used by surrounding nations
This illustrates the point that the US DOLLAR has become the world currency by default
CONFIDENCE is what ultimately determines value
Most are like parrots & apply no critical reasoning
First, Gold has never been the actual medium of exchange (one of the definitions of money).
No one is going to use a scale or whatever test to measure the % purity of gold in the piece of gold to determine the value when buying a loaf of bread or even if it's fake or real.
Not back in 200 AD let alone today. LOL
Divisible? Convenient? NOT
Did it occur to you ivory tower fools in your perfect world that there would be imitations (see later) if gold (or anything with actual tangible value) were used as an actual medium of exchange?
GOLD was by no means the actual medium of exchange even back in 200 AD Roman times or when coins were first used
Back in Roman gold Aureus of Septimus Severus (~ 200 AD), the actual Roman coin contained 7.1 g of gold (ie price of raw gold worth less than coin's face value).
An imitation coin struck in India weighed 11.3 g compared to the Roman coin
The fact that the imitation weighs more illustrates that CONFIDENCE in Roman coinage extended far beyond its borders.
If it were gold that was the medium of exchange, then (1) there would be no need for India to imitate Roman coinage to gain acceptance, and (2) the raw gold should have been worth more than the Roman coin.
Throughout history going back to when coins were first used, the DOMINANT ECONOMY'S CURRENCY has always been imitated - regardless of the actual worth (in weight of whatever raw precious metal).
It also reflects that the dominant economy’s currency is ALWAYS used by surrounding nations
This illustrates the point that the US DOLLAR has become the world currency by default
CONFIDENCE is what ultimately determines value
Hello Gloria:
You ask in reply to my answer to your first question about gold:
“ideal form of money doesn't explain why it worth anything in current time. No one uses gold as real currency anymore.”
An excellent question which goes to the heart of economics, namely the theory of value.
Ask your self why would a woman prefer a diamond engagement ring as opposed to a loaf of bread ? Think about that question for awhile before continuing and see if you can come up with the answer.
The would be bride might say to the man who proposed to her after throwing the loaf of bread in his face that his loaf of bread is worthless. If he tries to explain the value of bread versus a diamond to justify his action she will insist that he is wrong because a diamond ring is worth more than a loaf of bread. Which brings us back to your question about gold why is it "worth anything in current time". Why are diamonds or gold or silver worth more than bread or a glass of water ? You can't eat diamonds or gold but you can eat bread and drink water. So bread has more utility value than gold or diamonds wouldn’t you agree ? So what does determine the price or worth or value of any thing ?
The price of any thing in the market is determined by the consumer. “The consumer confers value by seeking to acquire it. Hence, the value of a thing is never objective, but always subjective… The monetary price of a thing is not the measure of its value, but only an expression of it.”
See
Essentials of Economics by Faustino Ballvé
https://mises.org/library/essentials-economics
If you think that because “No one uses gold as real currency anymore.” therefore it should not have any value then perhaps I was not clear in my previous post explaining why gold is the ideal form of money. Gold has value not because it is used as money it is used as money because it has value. While officially gold is not used as money it is money since it can be used as a medium of exchange.
If you want to know why consumers value gold so much more than other more utilitarian commodities then that answer is not a part of economics. Economics is based on human actions which can be observed not on theories of the inner psyche of the consumer.
Your question also leads to another topic called the paradox of value or diamond-water paradox. Why do diamonds cost so much and water which is a necessity of life costs so little ? Or you can say why does gold cost so much and water so little ?
The marginal-utility theory of value resolves this paradox.
“…diamonds are scarce and the demand for them was great, the possession of additional units was a high priority. This meant their marginal utility was high, and consumers were willing to pay a comparatively high price for them. Water is much less valuable only because it is much less scarce, and the buyers of water possess enough to satisfy their most pressing need for it. Additional purchases of water beyond people’s need for it will be of decreasing benefit or utility and will eventually lose all utility beyond the point at which thirst is completely satisfied.”
See the below for the complete explanation of Marginal Utility.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/364750/marginal-utility
I do hate the EPA. I miss the taste of mercury and PCBs in my drinking water. Soon with the new regs on antique energy generation like coal fired power plants we will no longer be able to enjoy the benefits of coal ash in the air.....So sad.
When I've dealt with them, I've found the EPA to be pretty reasonable. Sometimes it can be hard to figure out what they want you to do as they seem to have a rule where they're not supposed to give you advice. (But you can ask them for their opinion on "best practices" which works out to be the same thing.) And the pollution problem that scares me is contamination of ground water. Air pollution has been vastly improved since 50 years ago.
The de minimis levels get steadily lower. For example, right now, to avoid having to deal with EPA conformity, you have to emit less than 25 tons per year:
http://www.epa.gov/oar/genconform/deminimis.html
By the way, I forgot to add that you need to neutralize the waste HCl before you dispose of it. Use sodium bicarbonate or lye. Funny thing, HCl = somewhat dangerous, Lye = very dangerous, together they give salt water = not dangerous.
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The gold/fiat money argument is beat to death, and everybody seems to repeat it without any second thought...so let's get some originality here ok?
Gold WAS a good substitute centuries ago...if you were a traveler from Europe to China in the 1600s, gold as a currency was your best bet; it is a PM found throughout the world, it is scarce and easily recognized and detectable, and mostly importantly, it can't be duplicated/produced/faked. For these and other reasons, it just became the standard. Today's increasingly integrated global capital markets and coordinated trade efforts by governments, tied with a robust financial IT/identification system, eliminate a lot of the rationale for using gold as a store of value.
Fast forward to US in the 1800s, America had instituted a fiat system backed by gold. But fiat currency was tied to gold mainly because gold was tied to commodities and the farming industry. Whenever a poor farming season would occur, bank runs would follow and the price of gold shot up. Throughout 1800s to 1930s, all industries were connected to commodities - If you looked back at the listed stock companies around that time, almost every enterprise involved commodities and farming. Imagine that, home heater companies were the hot tech stocks at that time. Today, our industries have diversified, thereby diversifying bank loan holdings, and it makes no sense to tie all of these to gold.
*TL/DR - gold is a poor store of value due to structural changes in the global economies.
In all likelihood, gold today is more of a political statement, and gold prices are tied to interest rate products that reflect geopolitical risks. Global demand for physical gold hasn't really moved its price, rather the demand for for paper gold has in recent years is my argument.
*keep in mind that using gold as a store of value to prevent inflation is a flawed logic. Case in point, the California Gold Rush CAUSED inflation through speculative investments backed by gold.
Gold WAS a good substitute centuries ago...if you were a traveler from Europe to China in the 1600s, gold as a currency was your best bet; it is a PM found throughout the world, it is scarce and easily recognized and detectable, and mostly importantly, it can't be duplicated/produced/faked. For these and other reasons, it just became the standard. Today's increasingly integrated global capital markets and coordinated trade efforts by governments, tied with a robust financial IT/identification system, eliminate a lot of the rationale for using gold as a store of value.
Fast forward to US in the 1800s, America had instituted a fiat system backed by gold. But fiat currency was tied to gold mainly because gold was tied to commodities and the farming industry. Whenever a poor farming season would occur, bank runs would follow and the price of gold shot up. Throughout 1800s to 1930s, all industries were connected to commodities - If you looked back at the listed stock companies around that time, almost every enterprise involved commodities and farming. Imagine that, home heater companies were the hot tech stocks at that time. Today, our industries have diversified, thereby diversifying bank loan holdings, and it makes no sense to tie all of these to gold.
*TL/DR - gold is a poor store of value due to structural changes in the global economies.
In all likelihood, gold today is more of a political statement, and gold prices are tied to interest rate products that reflect geopolitical risks. Global demand for physical gold hasn't really moved its price, rather the demand for for paper gold has in recent years is my argument.
*keep in mind that using gold as a store of value to prevent inflation is a flawed logic. Case in point, the California Gold Rush CAUSED inflation through speculative investments backed by gold.