You say 'smoother', I say boring and unprofitable as can be. Just depends on your trading style and what you prefer.
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Why don't more people trade index futures?
- Thread starter I Trade 4 Money
- Start date
You say 'smoother', I say boring and unprofitable as can be. Just depends on your trading style and what you prefer.
Quote from austinp:
<i>"And if you are having 1 point slippage trading ES then you need to find something else to trade."</i>
If you clear 1,000 ES contracts thru any time of the day, there will invariably be -.50pt slippage in and also out. That's -1pt slipped on the turn... if your action points come during volume lulls or into program slams.
The ES is liquid, but won't handle 1,000 contract turns all the time with zero slippage. You know that, <b>volente</b>... you're just toying with us all :>)
Do you speak from experience ?
I say it can be done with no more than .5 unless trying it at night, even then 1000 can be had with 1 point. Size attracts size especially with the players in ES.
My point is that I would rather trade more size for less points in a less volatile contract than less size for more points in a higher vol contract.
Quote from apex82:
ditto to what Austin P says. Just be careful in er2, if you dont have an edge and strict discipline you will be wiped out in no time. Its the best bang for you buck, hands down, I just wish there was bit more volume.
Indeed......
I used to trade the ER2 but have recently moved down to NQ because: 1) my edge works better in the NQ and 2) my edge in ER2 didn't compensate for my variable discipline. If not always on your 'A' game it will chew up your stops.
I feel much happier with the NQ and find it easier to hold a trade through the noise to my exit signal.
volente, I've never traded more than 100 ES contracts on a turn, and never had partial fills or slippage problems at all. Matter of fact, I've had <i>positive</i> slippage in my favor when exiting on stops... bigger orders going the other way shoved the market in my favor.
I have talked with two ES traders who trade several hundred contracts per turn. I've been told that anything over 200 contracts will slip one - two ticks and sometimes partial fill on limit orders. I've watched bid/ask spread and analyzed tick charts with volume overlays to measure liquidity.
There are times when 1,000 ES contracts won't quiver the tape, and times when fewer than 1,000 contracts trade inside a 1pt span.
My only interest in the ES is exactly this liquidity. 1/2pt to 1pt slippage as part of my trade plan is no big deal. Someone shooting for 1pt or 2pts per the OP of this thread may find that an issue.
imo, NQ is smoothest to trade and ER richest potential for skilled traders. ES offers zero advantage over either those two except for highest liquidity. Nothing wrong with ES at all, except for current dead volatility and no-range persistence. When she opens up to normal ranges, ES is perfectly fine.
I have talked with two ES traders who trade several hundred contracts per turn. I've been told that anything over 200 contracts will slip one - two ticks and sometimes partial fill on limit orders. I've watched bid/ask spread and analyzed tick charts with volume overlays to measure liquidity.
There are times when 1,000 ES contracts won't quiver the tape, and times when fewer than 1,000 contracts trade inside a 1pt span.
My only interest in the ES is exactly this liquidity. 1/2pt to 1pt slippage as part of my trade plan is no big deal. Someone shooting for 1pt or 2pts per the OP of this thread may find that an issue.
imo, NQ is smoothest to trade and ER richest potential for skilled traders. ES offers zero advantage over either those two except for highest liquidity. Nothing wrong with ES at all, except for current dead volatility and no-range persistence. When she opens up to normal ranges, ES is perfectly fine.
"Nothing wrong with ES at all, except for current dead volatility and no-range persistence. When she opens up to normal ranges, ES is perfectly fine."
what is wrong with the ES, (at least for scalpers) is the spread
4 ticks of ES = 10 ticks of YM
spread matters. it is a HYOOOGE cost factor when scalping. for longer term trading, it obviously matters less.
wider spread offers more precise target and stop placement (and less chance of getting hit on stop)
as for the point about giving up the spread, personally, I almost never give up the spread since I enter on limit orders and exit on limit orders, the vast majority of the time
breakout style trading is more likely to enter otheriwse, as a counterexample.
the shorter the time frame, the more frequent the trades, and the smaller the account, the more important costs and spread are.
what is wrong with the ES, (at least for scalpers) is the spread
4 ticks of ES = 10 ticks of YM
spread matters. it is a HYOOOGE cost factor when scalping. for longer term trading, it obviously matters less.
wider spread offers more precise target and stop placement (and less chance of getting hit on stop)
as for the point about giving up the spread, personally, I almost never give up the spread since I enter on limit orders and exit on limit orders, the vast majority of the time
breakout style trading is more likely to enter otheriwse, as a counterexample.
the shorter the time frame, the more frequent the trades, and the smaller the account, the more important costs and spread are.
"the liquidity in ES is what makes it smoother compared to YM."
i find the YM smoother than the ES, but i realize "smoothness" is not exactly a precisely measurable and quantifiable thing, nor could we probably even agree what 'smoothness' is
apart from the superior spread (one reason I trade YM) and the fact that my setups (both backtested and forward tested and real time tested) WORK much better on YM, **i** find the smoothness factor much more playable on the YM
i suspect (purely suspicion) that the high # of arcade traders on the ES is one reason why it is not as smooth as YM
i find the YM smoother than the ES, but i realize "smoothness" is not exactly a precisely measurable and quantifiable thing, nor could we probably even agree what 'smoothness' is
apart from the superior spread (one reason I trade YM) and the fact that my setups (both backtested and forward tested and real time tested) WORK much better on YM, **i** find the smoothness factor much more playable on the YM
i suspect (purely suspicion) that the high # of arcade traders on the ES is one reason why it is not as smooth as YM
Quote from Bearbelly:
If you normally give up the spread you will save $750 for every hundred contracts traded by trading YM or NQ vs ES. This adds up over time.
Try moving 100 lots in YM and see what kind of slippage you get, If you put it up as a limit on the bid, pikers will jump all in front and run it up before you even get a partial fill.
Quote from whitster:
"the liquidity in ES is what makes it smoother compared to YM."
i find the YM smoother than the ES, but i realize "smoothness" is not exactly a precisely measurable and quantifiable thing, nor could we probably even agree what 'smoothness' is
apart from the superior spread (one reason I trade YM) and the fact that my setups (both backtested and forward tested and real time tested) WORK much better on YM, **i** find the smoothness factor much more playable on the YM
i suspect (purely suspicion) that the high # of arcade traders on the ES is one reason why it is not as smooth as YM
When I speak of smooth, I am refering that YM can be pushed easier than ES due to liquidity, this makes it choppy, whippy, prone to false breakout break downs, YM will often mover 15-20 point when ES barely moves 1, It is easier for big money to run stops on YM and they do it quite often. I agree that YM gives youy more entry and exit points but with less liquidity it does not matter much once you start trading bigger size because you have to hit the ask/bid to get filled or risk getting frontrunned. My other arguement for trading ES is the range. Take today for example the Ym had a 55 point range or $275 max if you caught the whole move and ES had a 9 point range or $450 if you caught the whole range. Some days it is closer but the majority of the time ES will out range the dow giving more profit to capture daily on the swings.