Why do traders find it difficult to make money?
- Thread starter Waylen
- Start date
Hello Waylen,
Traders are not profitable because they do not have someone profitable trading to teach them exactly how to be a profitable trader.
When trader do not know how to make money for sure/certain trading, they go in circles forever getting scammed by Trading Gurus, Trading Courses, Trading Books, and Trading theories.
So you are entering long and short on stop orders after market is moving in your direction. That is too taught by brooks. Which I do at times also. Nevertheless, the context in which that is done is as important as the actual doing of it. Likewise when buying below bars and selling above bars which I also do, context is very important. Things such as size of bars,….patterns bars are forming,…the immediate market cycle,…volatility present, …sequence of bars i.e. several bull bars or bear bars following each other and their closing price, …overlapping bars, ….bull then bear…then bull then bear bars (indicates balanced pressures at that instant),…gaps between bars close of prev bar and open of next bar or between high ov one bar and high of next bar gaps such as these not gaps in the traditional sense as most understand them. ,…etc
Hello zghorner,
Exactly @zghorner, impossible to make money trading the ES futures and be a millionaire, unless you know someone trading ES futures and is a millionaire. Otherwise, it is challenging to get there alone.
Unfortunately trading can never be exact. There are too many variables (known and even those that are unknowable) that can and everyday take place. Trading is more an art that fits the personality of the trader. For example; I am a scalper of 1 to 8 points in ES over and over all session long unless I get tired or judgement gets clouded and and find myself out of sync with that sessions market. When that happens time to stop shut computer down and go fishing or gardening or something else physical.
Other traders would never be happy scalping. They would beat themselves over the head for jumping out of a position when afterwards it continued their way. There is no sense in a scalper fretting about jumping out and leaving profits on the table. He can always jump back in after locking in a profit. Too often he won’t take the profit when handed to him and the bam …a variable springs up…and faster than a goose can crap his once profitable position is now losing and never recovers for the rest of that session.
If I were a novice scalping trader I would trade small maybe 1 contract small and scale in on probes against me but scale in small. Next I would make sure to use price action stoplosses not a set point SL. I would do this to give my trade a chance at being successful. IMO if one is going to use PA trading techniques then they have to use PA SL’s or they will bleed to death from a thousands paper cuts. Too tight of SLs and scalping will not work. Most of the time INITIAL R:R WILL be upside down for a scalper! A trader should ask himself if he can be comfortable trading with upside down INITIAL R:R before deciding to try scalping?
For a scalper there is no shame in grabbing a profit when handed to him regardless of what the markets does after his exit. The trade is done…profitable…closed…AND if market continues in the same direct he can simply enter again. Traders often get greedy wanting more and then market’s constant probing in both directions wipes out a for sure profit he failed to lock in.
If a trader wants to be a scalper just outside the HFT zone then he has to learn to trade like a scalper. Otherwise, perhaps he perhaps should become a swing trader or even an investor. Which is fine too. Scalping just fits my personality and I “like” doing. You have to like what you are doing for it to be sustainable for the long run.
Other traders would never be happy scalping. They would beat themselves over the head for jumping out of a position when afterwards it continued their way. There is no sense in a scalper fretting about jumping out and leaving profits on the table. He can always jump back in after locking in a profit. Too often he won’t take the profit when handed to him and the bam …a variable springs up…and faster than a goose can crap his once profitable position is now losing and never recovers for the rest of that session.
If I were a novice scalping trader I would trade small maybe 1 contract small and scale in on probes against me but scale in small. Next I would make sure to use price action stoplosses not a set point SL. I would do this to give my trade a chance at being successful. IMO if one is going to use PA trading techniques then they have to use PA SL’s or they will bleed to death from a thousands paper cuts. Too tight of SLs and scalping will not work. Most of the time INITIAL R:R WILL be upside down for a scalper! A trader should ask himself if he can be comfortable trading with upside down INITIAL R:R before deciding to try scalping?
For a scalper there is no shame in grabbing a profit when handed to him regardless of what the markets does after his exit. The trade is done…profitable…closed…AND if market continues in the same direct he can simply enter again. Traders often get greedy wanting more and then market’s constant probing in both directions wipes out a for sure profit he failed to lock in.
If a trader wants to be a scalper just outside the HFT zone then he has to learn to trade like a scalper. Otherwise, perhaps he perhaps should become a swing trader or even an investor. Which is fine too. Scalping just fits my personality and I “like” doing. You have to like what you are doing for it to be sustainable for the long run.
I couldn't agree more and sad that it took me so long to figure this out... big ego me use to excelling at everything I put effort into I guess.
I've had some good traders from this forum reach out and offer advice but it's just not enough. Really need constant guidance to be excellent at anything and with trading you're either excellent or losing money, no in between.
I've since completely quite trading and used remaining capital to buy another house. Real estate is literally easy mode path to wealth compared to trading and I have close family that are beyond helpful in this realm.
Once cash flow is better I may return to trading, idk...I miss it that's for sure.
Hello zghorner,
I respond below.
Yes, I agree, initially day trading sounds easy until you define a goal for you day trading. Most traders on ET is just bullshitting ass around playing around. When you have to go from 1 ES to 200 ES and make a million dollars to show some reward for your effort, everything in your mental and brain changes. Now that $50K you have in savings or that $100K or that $5K needs to be to work to make $1million. Now pressure enters the brain and stress! Then search begins.
And anyone in this trading business in ES futures market who not trying to make +$2 million and get the hell out this trading business is stupid and an idot and just bullshitting.
You are correct as well. Talking to an unprofitable trader on how to be profitable is a the biggest waste of time in the universe. Blind leading the blind.
No amount of help on trading will help you. You need cold-hard empirical historical facts non-bullshit that person telling you to trade this way, has made +$1million trading the ES futures market. If you do not have this, you will never succeed in the ES futures market, forget about it!! It is not your personality right now. Invest in SP 500 index as much as you can.
Anyone who has not made a million dollars trying to teach someone else how to trade the ES futures market is an idot. This is why I tell people just trade however they feel like it.
Correct, real estate is easier and Dollar Cost Average the SP 500 index.
Day trading is for gamblers. I am gambler, so I handle the ES just fine. And damn sure do not seek help from other traders. Well not anymore, waste of time. But I do like trading ES ideas from others.
If you come back to ES futures day trading. Come back small with the mindset of growing $1000 to $1million and approach day trading with a gambling mindset to get rich. Have fun with it, do not try to master it.
Only an idot will try grow $100K to $1million, then when the $100K is loss they are mental damage for life and have to live regret.
I will not get into the scamming side of Day Trading. LOL
Good Morning volpri,
Marvelous post you wrote. I love it. I scalp as well and I love it. It is VERY easy.
Swing trading is too much work for me and a waste of time.
For those interested here is an example of 5 scalps this afternoon to illustrate trading small and starting SMALL. 1 loser and 4 winners. IMO this is how beginners should scalp, if they even scalp at all. Start small. Start too big and a beginner will lose his shirt..socks..and pants! Because he cannot make himself place the SL in a proper place to give the trade half of a chance of working out. These trades I am showing here to sort of illustrates some of the concepts of starting and trading small that I mentioned above in my previous post. Maybe some will find it useful? If you are not a scalper you probably won't find much use for it.
I have marked what I consider proper SL levels for each of these five trades. A trade has to have enough room to work out. Scalping is most often upside down R:R initially but if one reads direction correctly then the ACUAL R:R is not too bad and can be positive by time the trade is over with. Actual risks is defined by what price went against your position plus 1 tick before it went in your favor and gave you a profit.
I use PA SLs (swing high..swing lows..beginning of moves etc) but also look at volatility (visually) in determining how far away to place the SL's.
I don't always wait for a SL to be hit before taking it. If volatility seems to indicate that is going to be hit I will just go ahead and take it. Like in the first trade that was a loss I took the loss before my min SL was hit. Why? I go the long direction and went long. Then when I saw the bear bar and could see the upper tails on the two previous bars I decided to just get out and take a chance on a short possibly heading to the bottom of the range rectangle.
The if price continues towards my initial SL I will double up and go with the proper flow. That is essentially what I did on that second trade. I doubled up short 2cs then added another contract for a total of 3 cs. Then exited all three with a profit getting back my loss plus some. I was betting a on big enough move towards the bottom of the TR to recuperate my loss and get me back making money.
Anyway, an example of how to start small, add small, and properly place SLs for scalping, and finally exiting with a profit. And of course taking the loss when one is wrong on their read of PA.
I have marked what I consider proper SL levels for each of these five trades. A trade has to have enough room to work out. Scalping is most often upside down R:R initially but if one reads direction correctly then the ACUAL R:R is not too bad and can be positive by time the trade is over with. Actual risks is defined by what price went against your position plus 1 tick before it went in your favor and gave you a profit.
I use PA SLs (swing high..swing lows..beginning of moves etc) but also look at volatility (visually) in determining how far away to place the SL's.
I don't always wait for a SL to be hit before taking it. If volatility seems to indicate that is going to be hit I will just go ahead and take it. Like in the first trade that was a loss I took the loss before my min SL was hit. Why? I go the long direction and went long. Then when I saw the bear bar and could see the upper tails on the two previous bars I decided to just get out and take a chance on a short possibly heading to the bottom of the range rectangle.
The if price continues towards my initial SL I will double up and go with the proper flow. That is essentially what I did on that second trade. I doubled up short 2cs then added another contract for a total of 3 cs. Then exited all three with a profit getting back my loss plus some. I was betting a on big enough move towards the bottom of the TR to recuperate my loss and get me back making money.
Anyway, an example of how to start small, add small, and properly place SLs for scalping, and finally exiting with a profit. And of course taking the loss when one is wrong on their read of PA.