Why did God......

[I am...]

Quote from oddiduro:

God puts two humans made in his image into a garden. He puts a tree there and warns them not to eat from it. He is all knowing.
So, he knew that they would eat from it. If he loves them so, why put the tree there in the first place, unless he were setting them up to fail, or there is an error in the storyline?

In our primitive legal system this could be considered entrapment.

On all-Paul judeo-christian radio the other day, mI* heard this explanation:

Two parents go out for the evening and tell their kids to absolutely not look in the box they put on their dresser in their bedroom. The "pastor" readily admitted that the first thing the kids are going to do is look in the box. He described how this is an almost irresistable temptation, like sitting in front of the TV with a bag of Doritos that you can think about but shouldn't eat. He even took a huge, hungry bite of an apple on stage and relished the taste. And yet, he still insists the kids are guilty because it was the one box the parents told the kids to look in...oops, I mean, nOt to look in.

This "pastor" seems not to make a correlation between the motives of gOd [of time] and the snake. If this explaination is in any way "the truth", then gOd and the snake were working toward the same purpose: to entrap and frame the suspected perpetrators on trumped up charges.


And this is my point. The gOd of biblical genesis is entangled with the snake toward the same objectives. So they are really one and the same, and hiding their connection by splitting one's attention between the apparent "good" and the apparent "evil". In magic, this would be called misdirection. The "pastor" is in on it because the magic offers him something he wants. And by his own desires for a glorified body, he is fooled.

A glorified body ranked among a heirarchy is the epitome of what it means to be "special". And it is *specialness* that ultimately motivates a powerful [but equal, not special] mind to make magic in the genesis of the illusion that is "the world". Without guilt, the goal of being special cannot be "realized". Guilt is as essential to the illlusion as gravity is essential to the inhabitants of the earth.

So, those who secretly desire to be special accept and promote any and all trumped up charges against the truth...and must misinterpret any teaching aids given to point them in the direction of truth.

And this is also my point. The genesis of the world is essentially magic by misdirection which produces the manifestation of an illusion of specialness. This is registered in the collective sub/un/conscious, and kept hidden in confusion by those who sense a benefit from the confusion. Any one [person,nation] who secretly wishes to be "chosen" above any other [person, nation] is going to side with the gOd of guilt which does select, grade, evaluate, rank, reward and punish. Indeed, they already have.

I submit that the genesis of this world is built on trumped up charges that could never stand up in the court of the True GoD. The verdict: Not Guilty. This verdict essentially pulls the rug out from under the illusion, and endangers its very existence. I submit that this is the very reason the true gospel of Jesus is so ignorantly resisted and shrouded with the smoke of false witnesses like Paul.

* = messenger "I".

Christ!

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from Barth Vader:

Good morning,

I appreciate the direct response. If I may, I would break my remarks into two parts. The first part will be allegorical, the second doctrinal.

[ caveat= I am not endeavoring to debate / argue you or anyone into "submission" ! I am merely defining the basis and understanding for the faith that I have, you may reject, ponder or agree as you see fit. That is your right, and I respect that. ]

I will suggest that a possible answer to your question, and may I say a very good question, is in front of us all. [I have found, that many "proofs of logic" are hard-wired into the realm we physically exist in, again, this is my faith.]

It was the will, purpose and good pleasure of G-D to create Adam. The same CAN be true in humanity. A man and a women, desire to have a child. They desire this, hopefully, as an extension of their love for each other.

The child arrives. The parents of the child, obviously have many more years of "living experience", and have for the most part, lived through or observed conduct which tends to lead to pain, death, agony, exhilaration, pleasure, honor, happiness, etc..

How shall the parents of the child impart this knowledge ? How shall the parents allow for experience and growth of the child ?

The parent could rule the actions of the child with an iron "fist", covered with a velvet glove, and few could argue that the parents were not acting in the best interests of the child. But how would this type of parental action effect the child ?

More than likely, the child, as is human nature [ I will address why I believe this is in our nature, under my doctrinal remarks], would resent this type of parental behaviour. Many of the lessons, which could be considered "perfect" as a result of the parents "headstart" in life, would fall on deaf ears, and some would be accepted as valid. A parent could "preach" until the cows come home, that if you touch that pretty looking flame, you will experience a very profound pain............well, I think we all know the answer to that one !

Upon burning himself, the child has gained a respect for the knowledge of the parent, but has also gained first hand "knowledge". And so the cycle continues.

I would offer, that the greatest love a parent can show, is to impart the knowledge and wisdom they have "earned", and then allow the child to live, albeit with its own consequences and experiences. Then, and only then, will the child look at the love, wisdom, experience of the parent, with a profound and honest analysis. The child then may come to the parents for advise, knowing that it is worthy, and the child may have grown to honor and respect this wisdom, which is in part the result of the breaching and dis-regarding of the initial parental claims.

I have described a scenario using humanity. How could it be different with an Omnipotent and Righteous G-D ? The garden contained the perfect will and good pleasure of G-D for His creature. It was an act of extreme love, in my opinion, and act of G-D stooping down to his creature, to say of all the trees in my garden, you may freely enjoy, but in the "fruit" of this one tree, is the knowledge of all that is not perfect. I have placed this here because I love you, and will not hold anything back....so that your love and respect for Me, your Creator, may be pure...

Please, heed my warning, do not touch the flame...........

I will address the doctrinal issues to your question, when I return later today.

Respectfully

so as a parent if you live near a freeway do allow your child to run out onto the freeway and get squashed by an 18 wheeler so you can show your love to that child by standing by while he gains knowledge or do you build a dam fence?

 

[I am...]

Quote from TraderZones:

This is said quite a few times throughout scripture. "The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing."

Since you are perishing [choosing death over LifE], the correct interpretation of the cross is foolishness to you.

Correctly interpreted, the cross points to the genesis of the illusion that is "the world".
The world begins with the concept: death of Truth.
Attributes of the truth include "Life" and "Light".
So,
The genesis of the world begins with the "life of death".
The genesis of the world begins with the "truth" of confusion [darkness].
The genesis of the world begins with the "truth" of a lie.
The genesis of the world begins with the "life" of a lie.

The biggest lie in the whole world is the whole world.
It is a "sin".
And,
Sin is a bogus concept.
So,
The world does not exist but as a bogus concept.

The world is therefore maintained by a lie, and by lying.
In fact,
It is built on faith and maintained by faithing.
Faith in the world saves those who want the world.
Faith in the truth saves those who want the truth.

So, the world is thematic.
It is conjured up by a "spell" [judgement, ie. "so mote it be"].
It's participants are spellbound by it.
The bible is essentially a book of spells serving the gOd of time.

Thematically, the world expresses for example:
"born to die".
This reflects the initial concept: "life of death".
And,
Physical birth reflects the concept: "life of a lie".

Another word for concept is 'self-concept'.
The world is a self-concept.
The self-concept is: Christ crucified.
The Self truth is: Christ cannot be crucified.
The Self truth is: Christ cannot die.
The Self truth is: Christ is Life.

The world is a "place" of "death".
So,
The whole world is nOt true.
What is nOt true does nOt exist, never did, never will.
Therefore,
Magic is essential to its illusiory upkeep.
Magic makes everything out of nothing.
But in the end,
The everything of magic is still nothing.

Does this sound like "foolishness" to you?

Christ!

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from TraderZones:

I asked you questions directly in above posts, and you danced around most. So what you accuse others of, you yourself do.

The direct answer to your questions are, that the scripture is written for the "faithful" and is impenetrable and incomprehensible to the blind. This is said quite a few times throughout scripture. "The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing."

You may not like it and think it is unfair, but the answer, once again, is that you keep imaging you have the capability to grasp the divine, when you yourself are a "speck."

You will continue challenging and chuckling, but you will understand when it is too late.

Does Satan do the same ? That is do you have to believe Satan, trust him,have faith in him, believe his word or seek him, to hear him, or does Satan make himself known without imposing such conditions ?

 

[jem]

God knew/knows man would never be satisfied with not having free will.

God put adam and eve in the Garden knowing they would choose to have the choice of knowledge of good and evil. he knew man would choose to want to be like God. But he gave man the choice to be happy and protected if he wanted it.

It was all about choice.

His plan is that man makes the choice to be with God. Man with knowledge of good and evil can choose God.

At first man could attempt to choose God by following the law that Moses laid down and doing the sacrifices that pointed to the sacrifice God would make for them.

God sacrificed his only son on the same mount that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son.

Jesus became the sacrificial lamb - his blood covers us like the way the lambs blood on the doorway in the shape of a cross kept the death away at Passover.

Just as the Jews were saved by covering themselves in the blood of the lamb we can all be saved by covering ourselves in the sacrifice God made for us on the cross.


The Garden of Eden is about free will. If you wish it is allegory which explains why there is suffering in a universe ruled by God.

Essentially man would not be happy if there were no consequences.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from jem:

God knew/knows man would never be satisfied with not having free will.

God put adam and eve in the Garden knowing they would choose to have the choice of knowledge of good and evil. he knew man would choose to want to be like God. But he gave man the choice to be happy and protected if he wanted it.

It was all about choice.

His plan is that man makes the choice to be with God. Man with knowledge of good and evil can choose God.

At first man could attempt to choose God by following the law that Moses laid down and doing the sacrifices that pointed to the sacrifice God would make for them.

God sacrificed his only son on the same mount that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son.

Jesus became the sacrificial lamb - his blood covers us like the way the lambs blood on the doorway in the shape of a cross kept the death away at Passover.

Just as the Jews were saved by covering themselves in the blood of the lamb we can all be saved by covering ourselves in the sacrifice God made for us on the cross.


The Garden of Eden is about free will. If you wish it is allegory which explains why there is suffering in a universe ruled by God.

Essentially man would not be happy if there were no consequences.

so your perfect god make an imperfect man? then he is not perfect.

Gene Roddenberry We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

God knew/knows man would never be satisfied with not having free will.

..but your God does not supply free will....

Quote from jem:

Essentially man would not be happy if there were no consequences.

You don't have free will to choose to be happy if there were no consequences .
If it's an allegory then it's an allegory for contradiction.

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

God put adam and eve in the Garden knowing they would choose to have the choice of knowledge of good and evil. he knew man would choose to want to be like God.

It was all about choice.

Adam did not know of good or evil. He could not choose between them because he had no knowledge of what good and evil were.

Your God knew they would choose to have knowledge because he made them that way . So God made the choice , not Adam. Adam just did what he was made to do and defaulted to the apple. No free will ,no choice.

Nothing about choice all about deceit and contradiction on the part of your God -and the gullability of crowds to actually fall for the nonsense of it all.

 

[killthesunshine]

Quote from stu:

Adam did not know of good or evil. He could not choose between them because he had no knowledge of what good and evil were.

Your God knew they would choose to have knowledge because he made them that way . So God made the choice , not Adam. Adam just did what he was made to do and defaulted to the apple. No free will ,no choice.

Nothing about choice all about deceit and contradiction on the part of your God -and the gullability of crowds to actually fall for the nonsense of it all.

DAMN. there ain't nothing like LOGIC.

your god might want to take a lesson from stu

 

[Barth Vader]

Quote from vhehn:

so as a parent if you live near a freeway do allow your child to run out onto the freeway and get squashed by an 18 wheeler so you can show your love to that child by standing by while he gains knowledge or do you build a dam fence?

Well, vhehn, this is not one of your better rebuttals, if I may say so.

Living near a freeway, is of course, a man-made construct.

Regarding the creation, these type of dangers were not present, in Adams' placement in Eden.

"...The fact that the creature can fall away from God and perish does not imply any imperfection on the part of creation or the Creator. What it does mean positively is that it is something created and is therefore dependent on preserving grace, just as it owes its very existence simply to the grace of its Creator.

A creature freed from the possibility of falling away would not really be living as a creature. It could only be a second God - and as no second God exists, it could only be God Himself. Sin is when the creature avails itself of this impossible possibility in opposition to God and to the meaning of its own existence. But the fault is that of the creature and not of God....it follows inevitably only from the incomprehensible fact that the creature rejects the preserving grace of God. What belongs to the nature of the creature is that it is not physically hindered from doing this. If it were hindered in this way, it could not exist at all as a creature. In that case, grace would not be grace and the creature would inevitably be God Himself................"

[ Church Dogmatics, III.1, The Doctrine of Creation, Karl Barth ]

In your analogy, I would offer that the child built the freeway which is presenting the possibility of mortal danger. But even so, there is a formidable wall placed between the two.......Grace.

Respectfully