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Why can't I make money - when I know what do do?
- Thread starter Vespasian
- Start date
Quote from Vespasian:
Thank you for the offer but my methods are sound and work well.
I don't need to learn how to trade I need to learn how to get out of my own way.
WHOAH - dude, you are in some SERIOUS fucking denial here.
1) Your methods don't work worth shit in real time, only on yesterday's charts, and/or in your own mind - but not in a sustainable, repeatable way in real markets.
2) EXACTLY what you need is to learn how to trade. You simply don't know how. At least not yet.
If the above are not true, then WTF did you start a "help me" thread?
Let me clue you in: your expression "I just need to get out of my own way" is just another alibi for your current lack of skill, drill and experience.
3 years is not enough time to be a real master of anything except jacking off. Do you really think you are going to go up against traders with decades of hard-won experience and many thousands more hours of screen time and situational response?
Until you get some self-honesty and some humility, you are doomed at trading.
PS I mean this not in a cruel way but this is reality - get used to it.
I want to share my story, warts and all, hoping that it will help someone here.
Frankly, in hindsight, that I could be so blind and stupid at first in the early parts of my trading career is quite embarassing.
* * * But it is only through ruthless self-appraisal that a trader can evolve past his/her shortcomings. * * *
Here are the mistakes I made in the first 6 years, in rough chronological order:
1) Ignored everything I read about how long it will REALLY take to become a Pro trader, about 5 to 10 years (yes, there are exceptions to this but not many) I was going to be different/better because I am so smart, right?
2) With my first $25k PDT account, I jumped in right away with too much real money size, the first year I traded about $30 million in stocks back/forth, and lost about $30k (almost the exact amount of my commissions spent)
3) I looked at the above and concluded that I was darn near to B/E as a trader in year one, I just needed some more edge to get another tick or two per trade and I was going to be profitable. The absolute truth is I just got lucky to only lose $30k.
4) Over the next 2 years, I went on the indicator Holy Grail chase, lost 2 more $15K account balances, decided that stock trading was too hard and switched to e-mini's. The truth is, I still did not understand how markets, price, crowds and trends work. ***note this is at the 3 year time frame just like the OP ***
5) Over the next 2 years, lost 3 more small ($6k to $8k) accounts because I was still chasing my own ass, switching indicators, methods and chart settings constantly. I traded counter-trend a lot and was trying to pick tops/bottoms too much. Got killed.
6) Got mentored by a former floor trader, but didn't REALLY listen to her profitable bad self - getting closer to break-even trading but still bleeding slowly - becoming convinced that indicators are not the answer but still looking for the easy way, not the hard way of really learning about price action
(part 2 next post, sorry for length but there is a point)
Frankly, in hindsight, that I could be so blind and stupid at first in the early parts of my trading career is quite embarassing.
* * * But it is only through ruthless self-appraisal that a trader can evolve past his/her shortcomings. * * *
Here are the mistakes I made in the first 6 years, in rough chronological order:
1) Ignored everything I read about how long it will REALLY take to become a Pro trader, about 5 to 10 years (yes, there are exceptions to this but not many) I was going to be different/better because I am so smart, right?
2) With my first $25k PDT account, I jumped in right away with too much real money size, the first year I traded about $30 million in stocks back/forth, and lost about $30k (almost the exact amount of my commissions spent)
3) I looked at the above and concluded that I was darn near to B/E as a trader in year one, I just needed some more edge to get another tick or two per trade and I was going to be profitable. The absolute truth is I just got lucky to only lose $30k.
4) Over the next 2 years, I went on the indicator Holy Grail chase, lost 2 more $15K account balances, decided that stock trading was too hard and switched to e-mini's. The truth is, I still did not understand how markets, price, crowds and trends work. ***note this is at the 3 year time frame just like the OP ***
5) Over the next 2 years, lost 3 more small ($6k to $8k) accounts because I was still chasing my own ass, switching indicators, methods and chart settings constantly. I traded counter-trend a lot and was trying to pick tops/bottoms too much. Got killed.
6) Got mentored by a former floor trader, but didn't REALLY listen to her profitable bad self - getting closer to break-even trading but still bleeding slowly - becoming convinced that indicators are not the answer but still looking for the easy way, not the hard way of really learning about price action
(part 2 next post, sorry for length but there is a point)
(part 2 of my story)
7) At about 5 years, just started to understand that I was A) trying to use indicators to make up for my lack of true skill and understanding of markets and also B) my trading style/method that I had been trying to cultivate - based on what I was telling myself was harmonious to my psychological makeup - was in fact NOT the correct trading style for me.
(I had convinced myself from staring at yesterday's charts (every day for 5 years) that the only way for me to trade was to try and wait patiently for "high probability and high risk vs. reward" setups - you see, it made so much sense to try and catch all of the big moves. Trade less, make more, right? Well, I have learned the expensive lesson that for me this is not right. Not even close. I am hyper and have an inner need to be right a lot, so high win-rate percentage scalping works great for me - this came as a real shock! How could I lie to myself for so darn long about this?)
8) At year 6, realized that I was fucked and had wasted a ton of time and money chasing bullshit, misinformation and the folly of others. I had a "moment of clarity". I resolved to learn how to truly read price action + S/R - I took all indicators except volume off of my charts, set my times to 15, 5, 2 minute frames, and sim-traded for over a full year before going back to real money. I never changed the charts or settings in all that time. I practiced scalping EVERY DAY for over a year (my other job allows my own shedule) and also practiced CME FX futures at night on most eves. This was 7 to 10 trading "sessions" per week for over a year - purely to get over my fears about getting stopped out with small losses and learning to spot real continuation when I was on the right side, so I could let winners get bigger. So that I actually have a real expectancy/edge instead of kidding myself by drawing lines on old chart patterns or tweaking indicator settings.
9) It is coming into year 8 that I am finally just now getting to be a damn good, consistently profitable trader. This was based purely on willing to forget about money but instead focus on REALLY learning how to truly flow with the markets in real time. To stop fighting the market moves.
Now, I make real returns that would make people's eyes pop out. I trade at a level that most on ET say is statistically impossible. That's fine with me, nothing to prove except to myself (and my wife who stuck by me).
The moral of the story is: It took me 7 full years and about $100k to really learn how to trade the right way for me. This is about what a PHD education takes in terms of time and money.
Is it all worth it? HELL YES. Hopefully, I will be a millionaire, 50 to 100 contract-at-a-shot trader in another year (or two or three or 4, whatever it takes) at my current developmental pace.
Because my trader development is really just getting traction now, after 7 long years of being broken down so that I could be rebuilt from the unrealistic know-it-all who lied to himself about most aspects of his trading - and into a real Trader.
So, does the OP really think he is going to kick MY ass at trading? (and many others like me that have put SO MUCH effort into this) After just a few years of his fumbling around? Get real. You need a lot more practice and self-honesty before you can compete.
I hope no one feels this story was too arrogant or self-aggrandizing, but it is all pretty accurate and certainly true.
So if you have the tenacity and the ability to get honest with yourself about your failure, you too can do it if I did.
I am nobody special, in fact I am apparently remedial and pretty slow to learn in some ways, as evidenced by my thickheadedness in learning this shit. Many traders have "got-it" a lot faster and with a lot less losses than me.
But you have to be willing to pay the same price(s) as me. The monetary price, the humility price, the psychological price, the tenacity price. The commitment price
So, how bad do YOU really want it? Are you willing to set aside your arrogance and denial about how you are actually thinking and behaving when it comes to trading?
7) At about 5 years, just started to understand that I was A) trying to use indicators to make up for my lack of true skill and understanding of markets and also B) my trading style/method that I had been trying to cultivate - based on what I was telling myself was harmonious to my psychological makeup - was in fact NOT the correct trading style for me.
(I had convinced myself from staring at yesterday's charts (every day for 5 years) that the only way for me to trade was to try and wait patiently for "high probability and high risk vs. reward" setups - you see, it made so much sense to try and catch all of the big moves. Trade less, make more, right? Well, I have learned the expensive lesson that for me this is not right. Not even close. I am hyper and have an inner need to be right a lot, so high win-rate percentage scalping works great for me - this came as a real shock! How could I lie to myself for so darn long about this?)
8) At year 6, realized that I was fucked and had wasted a ton of time and money chasing bullshit, misinformation and the folly of others. I had a "moment of clarity". I resolved to learn how to truly read price action + S/R - I took all indicators except volume off of my charts, set my times to 15, 5, 2 minute frames, and sim-traded for over a full year before going back to real money. I never changed the charts or settings in all that time. I practiced scalping EVERY DAY for over a year (my other job allows my own shedule) and also practiced CME FX futures at night on most eves. This was 7 to 10 trading "sessions" per week for over a year - purely to get over my fears about getting stopped out with small losses and learning to spot real continuation when I was on the right side, so I could let winners get bigger. So that I actually have a real expectancy/edge instead of kidding myself by drawing lines on old chart patterns or tweaking indicator settings.
9) It is coming into year 8 that I am finally just now getting to be a damn good, consistently profitable trader. This was based purely on willing to forget about money but instead focus on REALLY learning how to truly flow with the markets in real time. To stop fighting the market moves.
Now, I make real returns that would make people's eyes pop out. I trade at a level that most on ET say is statistically impossible. That's fine with me, nothing to prove except to myself (and my wife who stuck by me).
The moral of the story is: It took me 7 full years and about $100k to really learn how to trade the right way for me. This is about what a PHD education takes in terms of time and money.
Is it all worth it? HELL YES. Hopefully, I will be a millionaire, 50 to 100 contract-at-a-shot trader in another year (or two or three or 4, whatever it takes) at my current developmental pace.
Because my trader development is really just getting traction now, after 7 long years of being broken down so that I could be rebuilt from the unrealistic know-it-all who lied to himself about most aspects of his trading - and into a real Trader.
So, does the OP really think he is going to kick MY ass at trading? (and many others like me that have put SO MUCH effort into this) After just a few years of his fumbling around? Get real. You need a lot more practice and self-honesty before you can compete.
I hope no one feels this story was too arrogant or self-aggrandizing, but it is all pretty accurate and certainly true.
So if you have the tenacity and the ability to get honest with yourself about your failure, you too can do it if I did.
I am nobody special, in fact I am apparently remedial and pretty slow to learn in some ways, as evidenced by my thickheadedness in learning this shit. Many traders have "got-it" a lot faster and with a lot less losses than me.
But you have to be willing to pay the same price(s) as me. The monetary price, the humility price, the psychological price, the tenacity price. The commitment price
So, how bad do YOU really want it? Are you willing to set aside your arrogance and denial about how you are actually thinking and behaving when it comes to trading?
Great Post Slapshot. Thanks !
Best
John
Best
John
Look!
There is no point asking for help on this forum. Most folks that post on ET are losing money just like you and your post simply helps to make them feel better.
At the end of the day the market is efficient. It efficiency moves money from those who are controlled by their emotions to the few that are objective.
The few pro' traders on here don't even focus on the money. In fact, there disregard for the consideration of money would be considered as absolutely deviant in just about every other occupation (including stockbroking).
Nobody can address your problems except you! A message to your subconsious "if you're willing to hold a losing position in the hope that it will turn into a profitable one, then why aren't you willing to hold a profitable position?"
The market is irrelevant. It merely offers buy and sell opportunity in order to establish an unattainable equilbrium. Unattainable because short term movements are driven by people like yourself (controlled by emotions).
Anyway, enough waffle! In short, it must be easier excepting the pain from a loss incurred from following your plan than the pain, internal conflict, sleepless nights etc from impulse trading. BUT! Maybe you're addicted to the occasional big win. Who know?
Anyhow...traders like you pay my bills! Sort your head out!
PS. Trading is beautiful...it is like art! Like the finest classical music...like the St. Elmos Fire...it's like anything where the Zenith of human emotion is crystallised in a form that can be consumed by those that are ready! Fuck the money!!! It is a by-product...seek the beauty of being tune with what most consider as chaos.
Anyway...where's the Hennessy XO!
There is no point asking for help on this forum. Most folks that post on ET are losing money just like you and your post simply helps to make them feel better.
At the end of the day the market is efficient. It efficiency moves money from those who are controlled by their emotions to the few that are objective.
The few pro' traders on here don't even focus on the money. In fact, there disregard for the consideration of money would be considered as absolutely deviant in just about every other occupation (including stockbroking).
Nobody can address your problems except you! A message to your subconsious "if you're willing to hold a losing position in the hope that it will turn into a profitable one, then why aren't you willing to hold a profitable position?"
The market is irrelevant. It merely offers buy and sell opportunity in order to establish an unattainable equilbrium. Unattainable because short term movements are driven by people like yourself (controlled by emotions).
Anyway, enough waffle! In short, it must be easier excepting the pain from a loss incurred from following your plan than the pain, internal conflict, sleepless nights etc from impulse trading. BUT! Maybe you're addicted to the occasional big win. Who know?
Anyhow...traders like you pay my bills! Sort your head out!
PS. Trading is beautiful...it is like art! Like the finest classical music...like the St. Elmos Fire...it's like anything where the Zenith of human emotion is crystallised in a form that can be consumed by those that are ready! Fuck the money!!! It is a by-product...seek the beauty of being tune with what most consider as chaos.
Anyway...where's the Hennessy XO!
Quote from ThuNd3r:
High state of mind is more difficult to recognize and deal with. Pain alerted you to Low state. However, high state is only good feeling which is intoxicating. The thing trader need to realize is that High state is far more dangerous then a low state. The higher your state of mind the farther you have to fall and more pain/emotion/stress results.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
what ThuN3r said about the "high state" being even more dangerous then the low state is something that i can relate too.
i've been consistently profitable for a few years, but not at the level that i had hoped (fanatasized) for.
then during the crazy volatility of Oct. and Nov. 08 i took my little 5 figure futures account and increased it over 8 weeks by about 700%, from exactly Oct.1st until the Tuesday before Thanksgiving (i took wed. off). Thankfully, I made a nice wire transfer out of the account to my checking account before taking off for the holiday.
the day before all this started, i got word that someone who i am very close to had unexpectedly died. i was shaken and my family and friends all said i should take some time off and not trade.
well, i didn't listen. the type of trading i did during that 8 weeks was very unuasal for me. i wasn't falling my usual set-ups, in fact, i was almost just guessing and just jumping in here and there and jumping out again as soon as ES moved 10-20 points, often in a matter of minutes. i was making HUGE money, every day. During that 8 week period i had only ONE losing day. Incredible I thought. I must now be a market a genius, right?
As the character of the market changed in Dec., my random trading style didn''t fare well and I gave back over half of my profits.
i spent the x-mas break thinking about what went wrong. then in jan., i tried swinging the bat again as if it was still Oct. and Nov., but it didn't work and found i was just running in place.
it has been MUCH, MUCH harder to UNlearn that style that made me 700% in 8 weeks, then it was to learn to be consistent in the first place. i was being rewarded with huge profits for not obeying ANY of my rules. And to get back to trading within my rules was incredibly difficult because it seemed, "too boring", and "slow" and i was used to getting much bigger rewards.
bottom line for me is that my emotional state has more to do with being green on the day then my set-ups or money mgmnt, actually probably a lot more.
being aware of my emotional state is 95% of it for me.... your mileage may vary. lol.
Something I forgot to mention...
Turn off your account balance & Profit loss figures when trading. The only time to look at balance is before the session starts to calculate position sizing. Then when trading the only thing you need to focus on is avg fill, avg cost, & quantity of fill. The thing is when you can see your balance even if P/L is off your brain usually will try to calculate exactly how many $ you are up/down relative to past trade which can distract you from executing well on the next trade.
Turn off your account balance & Profit loss figures when trading. The only time to look at balance is before the session starts to calculate position sizing. Then when trading the only thing you need to focus on is avg fill, avg cost, & quantity of fill. The thing is when you can see your balance even if P/L is off your brain usually will try to calculate exactly how many $ you are up/down relative to past trade which can distract you from executing well on the next trade.
Quote from neveral0ne:
Yes, thats exactly what I seem to be always griefing about.
Coulda.Shoulda.Woulda. Every time I see trades that i was "placing in my head" do extremelly well, then the one time I do end up placing a trade, it goes the wrong way, I quickly cover my loss ( 100$ max downside I allow myself), and my confidence also goes down. I know this is emotional trading, which I shouldn't be doing.
I am scared of losing money, because I started trading in April 2008, and I opened my account with 39,000. I lost 90% of that, currently I have 5,000$, which is maybe why I'm still soo scared,
The difference between now and then, is that now I know soo much, I have strategies, I know what I'm doing unlike before.
Literraly if I placed every trade, I placed on my piece of paper, I would have made back almost half of the money in February alone...
Anyone know any books I can read to help out with psychological issue of being scared / confident ?
im wondering how its even possibly to loose 90% in that short of a time how many trades did u make... gheez u lose 20% shouldnt you question yourself>? maybe go back to demo? you lose 50%... holy balls... if ur losing that much money and your not adjsuting your position sizing and you didnt start out slow with low amounts... and work ur way up then no one can help you ....yeah ur makin money on paper who doesnt... but the profit gap is still gonna eat you alive because ur not disconnected with your capital... you said 4 years of saving... how can u ... lose 4 years of savings trading.... me i make money trading but i still cut back on stuff... been going 3 years... ive built my capital up ... i still work odd jobs for extra money... i clip coupons for groceries... why because i need to? no not really but i know that in 2 months if i lose 10% of my capital i have reserves ... i have odd jobs... i have saving skills... your 22 did u go to college? or is this a get quick skeem seems to be what it is for most people ne more ill put in a year of effort and be ballin out of control and buy a lambo .... right