Why Bother Working?

[dbphoenix]

Db is trying to confuse two separate issues. One, is people who submit fraudulent applications. The people who claim a bad back or fake a mental disorder when they are fine. They deserve our contempt.

The other issue is the system itself. As Sen. Coburn said, it is basically a coin flip who qualifies. So the standards are too vague, the people doing the evaluation are incompetent, or the system is overloaded with intentional fraud. But let's devote all our FBI resources to Ferguson , MO because that's the real problem in this country, not enough racial discord.

Db is trying to confuse two separate issues and you bring Ferguson into it?

Jeez.

 

[Lucrum]

That's the knee-jerk reaction. The person submitting the application is not to blame...

They ARE if it's a fraudulent application.

 

[gwb-trading]

Because the "overloaded public servants" are approving the applications.

If you wipe the rolls of every recipient who does not qualify after review but do nothing to change the process, then in a few months you'll be right back where you started.

Treat the cause, not the symptom.

So let's get this straight. The individual who knowingly submitted a false application bears no responsibility for the fraud. The bad actors, such as the law firms and medical practices providing fake diagnoses, should shoulder none of the blame. The blame simply should solely be placed on the government employee who had to process the fraudulent information, and is not empowered to perform any type of investigation (like drive to another state and interview the applicant). It is all about the "process", and not about the false input.

In your world, the individual deliberately committing the fraud bears no responsible and does not deserve our contempt. Does integrity and personal responsibility amount to nothing? The "cause" is the fraudulent person, this is not the "symptom"; the "treatment" should be criminal prosecution - this is a treatment should applied to anyone who submits false information on any benefits application.

 

[dbphoenix]

So let's get this straight. The individual who knowingly submitted a false application bears no responsibility for the fraud. The bad actors, such as the law firms and medical practices providing fake diagnoses, should shoulder none of the blame. The blame simply should solely be placed on the government employee who had to process the fraudulent information, and is not empowered to perform any type of investigation (like drive to another state and interview the applicant). It is all about the "process", and not about the false input.

In your world, the individual deliberately committing the fraud bears no responsible and does not deserve our contempt. Does integrity and personal responsibility amount to nothing? The "cause" is the fraudulent person, this is not the "symptom"; the "treatment" should be criminal prosecution - this is a treatment should applied to anyone who submits false information on any benefits application.

And how does one know that the application was fraudulent and the information false if there is no investigation? Ranting without providing any course of action is at best self-indulgent. It makes for water-cooler conversation but accomplishes nothing other than feed the perpetual whine about the "takers".

 

[Lucrum]

And how does one know that the application was fraudulent and the information false if there is no investigation? Ranting without providing any course of action is at best self-indulgent. It makes for water-cooler conversation but accomplishes nothing other than feed the perpetual whine about the "takers".

 

[gwb-trading]

And how does one know that the application was fraudulent and the information false if there is no investigation? Ranting without providing any course of action is at best self-indulgent. It makes for water-cooler conversation but accomplishes nothing other than feed the perpetual whine about the "takers".

So let's get this straight.... you oppose funding initiatives to investigate fraud because that would be "picking on the poor", you oppose funding to determine if illegal immigrants are applying, you oppose taking extra time to properly investigate each application (because it is important to get the benefits to the 'disabled' asap)... but you want to hold the government workers responsible for their lack of "investigation" for any fraudulent application.

You don't want to blame the individual who knowingly submitted the false application because this somehow only supports your vision that this 'accomplishes nothing other than feed the perpetual whine about the "takers".' There is a reason there is a growing concern about people fraudulently taking benefits; the top problem is that it undermines public confidence in these programs and reduces funding for those individuals who properly need (and qualify) for the benefits.

 

[dbphoenix]

So let's get this straight.... you oppose funding initiatives to investigate fraud because that would be "picking on the poor", you oppose funding to determine if illegal immigrants are applying, you oppose taking extra time to properly investigate each application (because it is important to get the benefits to the 'disabled' asap)... but you want to hold the government workers responsible for their lack of "investigation" for any fraudulent application.

You don't want to blame the individual who knowingly submitted the false application because this somehow only supports your vision that this 'accomplishes nothing other than feed the perpetual whine about the "takers".' There is a reason there is a growing concern about people fraudulently taking benefits; the top problem is that it undermines public confidence in these programs and reduces funding for those individuals who properly need (and qualify) for the benefits.

No, I do not oppose initiatives to investigate fraud. However, you're assuming that the fraud originates and resides in the individual making the application. You're going to have to begin by proving that this hypothesis is true. This is what investigations are all about.

If you've never applied for government assistance, you probably don't know that it's next to impossible to determine just what it is that one qualifies for. One therefore applies for whatever one thinks he qualifies for and leaves it up to whoever receives the application to make the determinations. On the whole, those who are responsible for processing these applications will go to sometimes extraordinary lengths to see that the applicant gets what he is entitled to get. That is after all the whole point of whatever the program and potential benefit may be. This is not a question of the employee's screwing the government but of fulfilling his responsibility.

As for illegals, that's a question of government policy. If it's the policy to grant these requests, then that's that. If you disapprove, then work to change the policy.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Undetermined, and at least two years old.

So they've spent two years trying to disprove it and failed. That works for me.

 

[Tsing Tao]

No, I do not oppose initiatives to investigate fraud. However, you're assuming that the fraud originates and resides in the individual making the application. You're going to have to begin by proving that this hypothesis is true. This is what investigations are all about.

If you've never applied for government assistance, you probably don't know that it's next to impossible to determine just what it is that one qualifies for. One therefore applies for whatever one thinks he qualifies for and leaves it up to whoever receives the application to make the determinations. On the whole, those who are responsible for processing these applications will go to sometimes extraordinary lengths to see that the applicant gets what he is entitled to get. That is after all the whole point of whatever the program and potential benefit may be. This is not a question of the employee's screwing the government but of fulfilling his responsibility.

As for illegals, that's a question of government policy. If it's the policy to grant these requests, then that's that. If you disapprove, then work to change the policy.

This is a bunch of horseshit when it comes to disability. If one is not disabled and capable of working, and one applies for disability with a sad story hoping to get it, it is fraud.

 

[Tsing Tao]

As opposed to . . .

Why don't you dig a little further to see the racial makeup of that data.