Why Are The French So Anti????

Thanks to BlueHorseShoe for posting this NYT piece on another thread:

Vote France Off the Island
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


Sometimes I wish that the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council could be chosen like the starting five for the N.B.A. All-Star team — with a vote by the fans. If so, I would certainly vote France off the Council and replace it with India. Then the perm-five would be Russia, China, India, Britain and the United States. That's more like it.

Why replace France with India? Because India is the world's biggest democracy, the world's largest Hindu nation and the world's second-largest Muslim nation, and, quite frankly, India is just so much more serious than France these days. France is so caught up with its need to differentiate itself from America to feel important, it's become silly. India has grown out of that game. India may be ambivalent about war in Iraq, but it comes to its ambivalence honestly. Also, France can't see how the world has changed since the end of the cold war. India can.

Throughout the cold war, France sought to differentiate itself by playing between the Soviet and American blocs. France could get away with this entertaining little game for two reasons: first, it knew that Uncle Sam, in the end, would always protect it from the Soviet bear. So France could tweak America's beak, do business with Iraq and enjoy America's military protection. And second, the cold war world was, we now realize, a much more stable place. Although it was divided between two nuclear superpowers, both were status quo powers in their own way. They represented different orders, but they both represented order.

That is now gone. Today's world is also divided, but it is increasingly divided between the "World of Order" — anchored by America, the E.U., Russia, India, China and Japan, and joined by scores of smaller nations — and the "World of Disorder." The World of Disorder is dominated by rogue regimes like Iraq's and North Korea's and the various global terrorist networks that feed off the troubled string of states stretching from the Middle East to Indonesia.

How the World of Order deals with the World of Disorder is the key question of the day. There is room for disagreement. There is no room for a lack of seriousness. And the whole French game on Iraq, spearheaded by its diplomacy-lite foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, lacks seriousness. Most of France's energy is devoted to holding America back from acting alone, not holding Saddam Hussein's feet to the fire to comply with the U.N.

The French position is utterly incoherent. The inspections have not worked yet, says Mr. de Villepin, because Saddam has not fully cooperated, and, therefore, we should triple the number of inspectors. But the inspections have failed not because of a shortage of inspectors. They have failed because of a shortage of compliance on Saddam's part, as the French know. The way you get that compliance out of a thug like Saddam is not by tripling the inspectors, but by tripling the threat that if he does not comply he will be faced with a U.N.-approved war.

Mr. de Villepin also suggested that Saddam's government pass "legislation to prohibit the manufacture of weapons of mass destruction." (I am not making this up.) That proposal alone is a reminder of why, if America didn't exist and Europe had to rely on France, most Europeans today would be speaking either German or Russian.

I also want to avoid a war — but not by letting Saddam off the hook, which would undermine the U.N., set back the winds of change in the Arab world and strengthen the World of Disorder. The only possible way to coerce Saddam into compliance — without a war — is for the whole world to line up shoulder-to-shoulder against his misbehavior, without any gaps. But France, as they say in kindergarten, does not play well with others. If you line up against Saddam you're just one of the gang. If you hold out against America, you're unique. "France, it seems, would rather be more important in a world of chaos than less important in a world of order," says the foreign policy expert Michael Mandelbaum, author of "The Ideas That Conquered the World."

If France were serious about its own position, it would join the U.S. in setting a deadline for Iraq to comply, and backing it up with a second U.N. resolution authorizing force if Iraq does not. And France would send its prime minister to Iraq to tell that directly to Saddam. Oh, France's prime minister was on the road last week. He was out drumming up business for French companies in the world's biggest emerging computer society. He was in India.
 
Quote from hapaboy:

Thanks to BlueHorseShoe for posting this NYT piece on another thread:

Vote France Off the Island
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


Sometimes I wish that the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council could be chosen like the starting five for the N.B.A. All-Star team — with a vote by the fans. If so, I would certainly vote France off the Council and replace it with India. Then the perm-five would be Russia, China, India, Britain and the United States. That's more like it.


You have a very good point there: let us engage in a global voting process on which countries should form be the 5 permanent members of the Security Council, with veto rights. Good idea, really!

So should we say "One man one vote"? Or rather: "one adult human being one vote"?

Presently the world population is 6 billion? Take away the kids and those who cannot vote, so we have something like 3-4 billion. Agree?

Okay, now: how many of those say 4 billion will be American voters? 150 million? That would be less than 4% Provided they all go to their polling stations and all of them unanimously vote for the US as a permanent member, you have less than 4% in favour of the US. And now try and imagine how the rest of the world would vote. You really think your favoured Indians (I have no problem with India as a permanent member!!!) would vote for the US? After all the support for their arch-enemy Pakistan? Or what will the 700 or so million Chinese voters think? "The US up there rather than our guy"?

Get real, if you want to remove the US from the security council, then you are on the right track! But then again, maybe that's what most of the people in the world really want.
 
Quote from fairplay:

Quote from hapaboy:

Thanks to BlueHorseShoe for posting this NYT piece on another thread:

Vote France Off the Island
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


Sometimes I wish that the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council could be chosen like the starting five for the N.B.A. All-Star team — with a vote by the fans. If so, I would certainly vote France off the Council and replace it with India. Then the perm-five would be Russia, China, India, Britain and the United States. That's more like it.


You have a very good point there: let us engage in a global voting process on which countries should form be the 5 permanent members of the Security Council, with veto rights. Good idea, really!

So should we say "One man one vote"? Or rather: "one adult human being one vote"?

Presently the world population is 6 billion? Take away the kids and those who cannot vote, so we have something like 3-4 billion. Agree?

Okay, now: how many of those say 4 billion will be American voters? 150 million? That would be less than 4% Provided they all go to their polling stations and all of them unanimously vote for the US as a permanent member, you have less than 4% in favour of the US. And now try and imagine how the rest of the world would vote. You really think your favoured Indians (I have no problem with India as a permanent member!!!) would vote for the US? After all the support for their arch-enemy Pakistan? Or what will the 700 or so million Chinese voters think? "The US up there rather than our guy"?

Get real, if you want to remove the US from the security council, then you are on the right track! But then again, maybe that's what most of the people in the world really want.
The problem with your argument is that no matter who was voted in, the simple fact of the matter is that the UN is utterly worthless without the US. I'm not bragging here, but stating a fact. Heck NATO is worthless without the US (Europe can't even take care of business in it's own house - it's the US that had to come to the rescue and bomb the Serbs - to protect MUSLIMS, by the way, Fairplay.).

A security council without the US would be as effective as a security council with Indonesia, Burundi, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Liechtenstein. Nowadays though, that's what it's looking like anyway.
 
http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml

Here maybe a game can explain the situation for you.

Friedman has written a good book "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" but he is one of the most liberal people I know and his ideas are sometimes completely ridiculous and unrealistic.

In the end I am sure Europe will save the US from another 9/11 and that's it. They're not playing the emotional card (and they are standing their ground, good for 'em)
 
Well, one day I would like to travel to France. I hear you can get some good deals over there. A good friend of mine says.."you can buy the best used guns in France. They've never been fired and been dropped only once."
 
Quote from swoop[TR]:

freealways, the three MAIN opposers as you call them are very much important, if they weren't we wouldn't be having this conversation. France/Germany/Russia/China are irritating the US, but you can't just disregard their opinions. Their motivations are maybe honorable, how do you know ? France and Germany might have interests (doubtful) but Russia and China may have other interests, you can't just lump them up in the same bag.

If India didn't want to bomb Iraq, I think we (western world) would have bombed Iraq a long time ago, regardless. Come on, France and Germany are not lightweight, and that's what is irritating the US 'cause they can't get the consensus. Eventually everybody will come to one same conclusion, but doesn't seem like it will happen tomorrow.

France germany and russia are total lightweights....the next big problem in the world will come from the various fractions of the old soviet empire having wars amongst themselves and of course, trying to secure the weapons form the old soviet....how can a country like France and Russia be considered important when they have a smaller gdp then the state of california? Germany and france are pathetic cowards who have no influence or clout and once the bombs start rolling it';s going to be great watching them try to get in on a the spoils of war!
 
Quote from swoop[TR]:

[BFriedman has written a good book "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" but he is one of the most liberal people I know and his ideas are sometimes completely ridiculous and unrealistic. [/B]
That a liberal wrote such a terrific piece gives me hope.
 
France, Germany, Russia, China, all will be losers.

And I still think THEY CAN'T Changer their tune.

Because everyone of them have helped SADDAM build WMD.

They're gona be found out, when we open the bunkers up and see the Made in France, Made in Germany, etc, etc.
 
agin1415: They're gona be found out, when we open the bunkers up and see the Made in France, Made in Germany, etc, etc.

- chocolate made in Switzerland and Anthrax made in USA
 
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