Who REALLY Caused The Financial Meltdown... and who tried to stop it

[Ghostdog]

Sorry I disagree with you, Scataphagos. Dont get me wrong, I am not defending the government in anyway, all I am saying is that people need to think about the piece of paper they are signing.

You know how many first time homeowners go to a closing without an attorney or consult one before hand.. Hmmm.. the biggest debt I have ever had to assume but I want to save the 250 bucks.... That is plain stupid.. Because if you dont understand what the contract states an attonery should be able to enlighten you on the finer points.. like in 5 years if rates change for the bad you are SOL for example ... If you are defending that type of action than I assume you believe that everyone should get bailed out when they themselves take wrong action. Sorry but, Im not in that camp.

Speaking of the DEMS, why is it that the "first black president", Bill Clinton is never mentioned when discussing how he changed they way they calculate Unemployment and CPI to falsely make things look better then they are, to name a few. That is just as bad as the "Every American has a right to own a home"

Its about time that people start paying for their mistakes, it will hopefully teach them a lesson and they wont act like a sheep the next time they have to make an important decision.

Ghostdog

 

[Ghostdog]

I agree Greg, still believe that we have a choice in our decisions. While some of these actions by the government may have tricked a few people I think the bulk of the people got on the train because of greed and entitlement. I respect your opinion as I hope you do mine.

Ghostdog

Quote from Greg Richards:

Borrowers have responsibility, and many people still have too much debt and too little equity in their homes. Add to that a mountain of credit card debt combined with the 2005 bankruptcy law changes (making it harder to clear credit card debt), and many people won’t see daylight in their lifetimes. Yes, they could have been more responsible (but see below).

Tavakoli talks about personal responsibility in her book DEAR MR. BUFFET, and here’s one example:

“Suppose there is an unemployed man with no source of other income other than his representation that he is a successful Internet day trader. Up until now, he has not been very successful at anything. He has a poor credit history, and he wants to buy a home he could not previously afford. Fortunately, he says he has a flair for gambling—I mean—day trading, on the Internet. He does not wish to provide documents verifying his success because the key to his successful formula is that is must remain confidential. Furthermore, he does not want to make a down payment on a home since his capital is tied up in his successful Internet day trading strategy, which he says is more profitable than the housing bubble—I mean housing investment. Why tie up money in a down payment when he can use that money to gamble—I mean—increase his fortune?”

“Fortunately, a mortgage broker, who is completely objective, since his income depends solely on the fees he generates by making mortgage loans, is willing to overlook the absence of documentation. The Internet day trader can state his income, and that is good enough for the mortgage broker. The mortgage lender helpfully informs the day trader that there have been mortgages made to people who apparently cannot afford them other than the fact that they are willing to state an income which suggests they can make the payments—so climb on board.”

But she also talks about predatory lending and illegal deceptive practices. She maintains most of our woes could have been nipped in the bud if the SEC had shut down phony securitizations at investment banks, because the imploded private mortgage lenders got their money supply from investment banks to keep the fee generation train running. The rating agencies were complicit. Not to mention lax sophisticated investors, monoline bond insurers and other culprits. Combine value destroying securitizations that can only go down in value with excessive leverage, and you create a bubble followed by a financial nightmare.

Given the extraordinary allegations in her book DEAR MR. BUFFETT, it is remarkable that Warren Buffett invited her to sign copies at the Annual Meeting on May 2 (its on her web site). But her documentation and notes are bullet-proof.

She documents everything and gives example after example and names deals. She looked at all of Merrill’s 2007 CDOs and all of them were compromised at the “AAA” rated level, around $32 billion in notional amount. All of the I-banks were involved to greater or lesser degrees, including Goldman Sachs Alternative Mortgage Products with residential mortgage backed securities.

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[Hombre]

Quote from LincolnArmy:

I think that it is unfair to blame it all on barney because he was busy uphill gardening when he should have been keeping an eye on the economy. Too bad he was shirtlifting and getting his knickers in a twist about rent boys when he should have been doing his job.
I twaught I taugh a puddycat...
wannabe elma fudd

One question for the septics on this forum -what kind of cnut voted him into office???

Fair question. How stupid americans really are ? Who does vote for these clowns ? Bunch of fuuuking morons.

 

[Hombre]

Quote from Ghostdog:


Its about time that people start paying for their mistakes, it will hopefully teach them a lesson and they wont act like a sheep the next time they have to make an important decision.

Ghostdog

You know very well that chance of that is a big fat zero. USA is a toast, morally corrupted congress just realized that they can do anything they want without any consequences . Wait and see.

 

[Greg Richards]

Quote from Ghostdog:

I agree Greg, still believe that we have a choice in our decisions. While some of these actions by the government may have tricked a few people I think the bulk of the people got on the train because of greed and entitlement. I respect your opinion as I hope you do mine.

Ghostdog

Ghostdog, I agree with you. That applies in spades to the I-banks, AIG, Citigroup. That is why I object to using public money to support the debtholders of these institutions. Depositors of FDIC insurance would get their money, the government could have temporarily backed loans until the final tally was made and debt holders would have gotten a debt for equity swap which would have the effect of recapitlizing the system. But that didn't happen because interested men had the influence to subvert capitalism.

 

[Cutten]

Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

The irony of course is that while stocks are back to their late 1990's levels with a few financials/banks at zero, home prices in even the most beleaguered markets are all the way back to ...gasp... their 2003 prices.

I'd take that fact as signaling further declines. Bubbles don't end by hitting 5 year lows.

 

[Ghostdog]

The one I would very unfortunately have to disagree with is AIG. As much as it pains me to say, if AIG failed the world economy would have been slaughtered. Nobody has the amount of leveraged money they have in the Credit Defalt Swap market. They hold insurance on some would say upwards of 40 trillion dollars..

but its a game we play.. we know they could never cover the swaps if they were all called at once but its like the banks.. The banks dont have the money to pay out if everyone came in at one time...

But with AIG, if they were gone, there wouldnt be any coverage and if companies started to fall, like Hartford or Met (or even locals like Harris bank or 5/3) who were in deep doo doo back in the summer and the was no one to back them, just about every person holding an annuity would be out of not only the profits over time but their original investment as well.. That's just one case and you can imagine the havoc that alone could reap on the overall economy if all those annuities were gone in an instant. Picture that 40 trillion in coverage gone... Again, its the game we play though because we "know" they cant cover it, yet if they are solvent we feel safer... and maybe to a degree we are so long as they arent all called in at once.

You can see they have us by the balls thats why they dont give a rats ass if they are partying or taking trips on the tax payers dollars because they know 100% the governement will not allow them to fail and unfortunately, at this space in point in time I would have to agree.. The rest of them... for the most part.. they can kiss off. Though of course we need some facimile of a banking/credit system to fucntion..

If there is something I blame the government on its that if they were smart Paulson would have went down to the ceo's or JP, BAC, C and all the rest back in March of last year and said... You either start issuing commercial paper til people are choking on it or I pad lock the doors tomorrow morning and if you think Im joking try me out. Of course they didnt want to because it would obviously depress the price of their stock but they woudl have had reserves out the yin yang and that certainly would have helped the crisis later in the year. I dont know if it woudl have solved it but it definitely woudl have helped it.

But as I said in an earlier post. Governments and big business are reactionary by nature and that aint going to change anytime soon. Certainly those banks aversion to doing the right thing was completely surrounded by greed. nothing else, not one thing more, and when it gets to that point you know nothign good will come.

I agree with your other points

Ghostdog

Quote from Greg Richards:

Ghostdog, I agree with you. That applies in spades to the I-banks, AIG, Citigroup. That is why I object to using public money to support the debtholders of these institutions. Depositors of FDIC insurance would get their money, the government could have temporarily backed loans until the final tally was made and debt holders would have gotten a debt for equity swap which would have the effect of recapitlizing the system. But that didn't happen because interested men had the influence to subvert capitalism.

 

[Ghostdog]

The operative word in my post was hope... Im not optimistic but there really wasnt another option

Quote from Hombre:

You know very well that chance of that is a big fat zero. USA is a toast, morally corrupted congress just realized that they can do anything they want without any consequences . Wait and see.

 

[dafeeder]

Quote from Ghostdog:

The one I would very unfortunately have to disagree with is AIG. As much as it pains me to say, if AIG failed the world economy would have been slaughtered. Nobody has the amount of leveraged money they have in the Credit Defalt Swap market. They hold insurance on some would say upwards of 40 trillion dollars..

but its a game we play.. we know they could never cover the swaps if they were all called at once but its like the banks.. The banks dont have the money to pay out if everyone came in at one time...

But with AIG, if they were gone, there wouldnt be any coverage and if companies started to fall, like Hartford or Met (or even locals like Harris bank or 5/3) who were in deep doo doo back in the summer and the was no one to back them, just about every person holding an annuity would be out of not only the profits over time but their original investment as well.. That's just one case and you can imagine the havoc that alone could reap on the overall economy if all those annuities were gone in an instant. Picture that 40 trillion in coverage gone... Again, its the game we play though because we "know" they cant cover it, yet if they are solvent we feel safer... and maybe to a degree we are so long as they arent all called in at once.

You can see they have us by the balls thats why they dont give a rats ass if they are partying or taking trips on the tax payers dollars because they know 100% the governement will not allow them to fail and unfortunately, at this space in point in time I would have to agree.. The rest of them... for the most part.. they can kiss off. Though of course we need some facimile of a banking/credit system to fucntion..

If there is something I blame the government on its that if they were smart Paulson would have went down to the ceo's or JP, BAC, C and all the rest back in March of last year and said... You either start issuing commercial paper til people are choking on it or I pad lock the doors tomorrow morning and if you think Im joking try me out. Of course they didnt want to because it would obviously depress the price of their stock but they woudl have had reserves out the yin yang and that certainly would have helped the crisis later in the year. I dont know if it woudl have solved it but it definitely woudl have helped it.

But as I said in an earlier post. Governments and big business are reactionary by nature and that aint going to change anytime soon. Certainly those banks aversion to doing the right thing was completely surrounded by greed. nothing else, not one thing more, and when it gets to that point you know nothign good will come.

I agree with your other points

Ghostdog

Good points but AIG stock is at $1.38 so it looks like they did fail and it has rallied a whole $1 in the last 2 months so it appears not too many investors have any trust left in that stock.

I think if the GOVT is going to bail any company out then they should bust the broke company up and give sound companies whats left and let them try to make a go of it. There has to be consequences to not managing risk just like when traders screw up and don't respect risk. If the dumb butts that bailed out LTCM back in the late 90's would have let them fail maybe things would have been different this go around. I hate to see Chrysler go under but the GOVT needs to let the chips fall on all these broke companies and let others pick up the pieces. We will never know if letting AIG fell would have slaughtered the world economy, although I think it already has. A few years back I always wondered why our house loan was being sold every other year. It never did make much sense at the time but now it does. The game caught up with the crooks.

 

[piezoe]

I have Jack on ignore, but i must say his quotes posted by others have provided some great laughs over the past few years. The one below has got to go on my refrigerator!

Quote from Trader666:

If what Jack wrote here is really true, maybe all the Hershey traders blowing their accounts caused the meltdown.

Quote from jack hershey:

Around 1990 there was a fairly good accounting of how many people were keeping three ring binders. It was over 10,000 and we lost track.