Who is Woodie???
- Thread starter wdscott
- Start date
- Status
VisionTrader
Saw a picture at Linda Bradford Raschky's website and one of the people she works with has the nickname of Phantom. Some ideas from LBR's site could well come from the POP. Who knows?
Saw a picture at Linda Bradford Raschky's website and one of the people she works with has the nickname of Phantom. Some ideas from LBR's site could well come from the POP. Who knows?
I started this thread to find a little information on Woodie and his CCI
So far, this is what I have found:
Letâs start with the:
THE GOOD
1. Ken Woods â Woodieâ runs a chat room via the HotComm servers
2. CCI is the Indicator which his room uses to make market calls
3. Woodie does not need any other indicator nor price action to execute his trades.
4. He has a large following of devoted visitors to his site
5. New traders get information for free ( not including the cost of Hotcomm)
6. Some people are very loyal in learning this indicator and the chats focus on learning one thing and one thing only. Which is good, especially for beginners
7. HotComm is a very good piece of software. Real-Time video of charts, sound, and chat make this a perfect venue for online education.
8. Woodies Mottos, âTraders helping tradersâ, âPositive Attitude and Positive Postâ, âThere will be better traders down the roadâ
9. Some traders getting help in other areas of trading such as the psychological aspects.
10. Some people claim Woodie has helped them to become consistently profitable
11. Woodie does not sell anything.
12. Woodie appears to be an honest, caring, trader who truly wishes to help others
13. A charity is benefited from those traders that profit using Woodies techniques. The Make-A-Wish Foundation. A worthwhile charity.
14. Really cool names for trades such as Zero-Line Reject , Shamu, Batman, slingshot and best of Las Vegas
15. The room is free
THE BAD
1. Hard for many people to understand these complex patterns
2. CCI works in strongly trending markets as my previous post shows, but in low trending markets is where CCI shows many whipsaws
3. Itâs Just another trading style which may or may not work for you.
4. A lot of responses have reported this site to be a little âCultâ like, I find this observation from many responders to be a little disturbing
5. The CBOT has hired Woodie to train traders on CCI. I think the CBOT traders will have many profitable months aheadâ¦.fading the moves
6. The CCI is no Holy Grail.
7. A quote from a user âTrades in the room are made for no apparent reason.â This will ultimately confuse newbies more than it helps
8. 500 participants in a chat. How could anyone possibly learn anything?
9. The room is free. But as my Father told me â you get what you pay for.
10. Some comments I have highlighted on this thread âChaos in the roomâ and âLeft on your own to figure things outâ
11. Why is there an almost iron hand insistence on using only CCI? There are lots of valid ways to trade
12. Experienced moderators who are very helpful teaching the techniques while they are struggling for profitability??????? Its free though. Just remember your losses arenât.
13. Matilda and Jgalt are two ET members that constantly report fudged trades.
14. âWoodie loves making calls after the fact. He'll alert you to a "possible" set-up, and then take credit for having "made the call", if it goes well. If it doesn't go well, it's never discussed again.â - jgalt
15. âI feel sad for all these people flocking to the room these days, lots of dreams will be shattered and many accounts will be destroyed. Most of these people do not realize how tough it is.â â bali survivor
âsometimes a "zero line reject" turns out to be a "shamu trade" and a "regular divergence" turns out to be a "reverse divergence" and a "vegas trade" turns out to be a "reverse divergence" and sometimes a "zero line reject" zig zags all the way through to the opposite side. IMHO the cci can be used in much better ways than these retarded rules.â Daxtrader
THE UGLY
1. Woodie apparently doesnât use other indicators in his room but Carolyn Borden Fib cluster is ok?
2. âLack of tolerance for dissenting opinions and the unwavering âworshipâ of the moderatorsâ - quote from ET member
3. Chat members and Moderators (croc1964) are willing to study the CCI indicator for endless hours without even knowing whether the techniques being shown have any statistical advantage in real-time trading. Scary!!
4. Possible Joint Venture profit sharing partnerships with E-signal, Carolyn Borden, 3-4 yearly seminars in Chicago, Florida, phoenix etc⦠There is a lot of money involved here. I personally would not mind but for the fact of the constant reminder that no one is compensated and nothing is sold. Come on people. Grow up. There is a lot of money here probably ½ million to a million dollars a year. Do you think Woodie might be the beneficiary of some of this revenue???
E-Signal total revenue total approx $500,000
HotComm revenue for 500 members ???
Trading workshops 500x 225 dollars $112,500 x 3 times a year $300,000
Links with Carolyn Boroden ??????
Thanks, but no thanks . Iâll pass.
Regards,
Dave Scott
So far, this is what I have found:
Letâs start with the:
THE GOOD
1. Ken Woods â Woodieâ runs a chat room via the HotComm servers
2. CCI is the Indicator which his room uses to make market calls
3. Woodie does not need any other indicator nor price action to execute his trades.
4. He has a large following of devoted visitors to his site
5. New traders get information for free ( not including the cost of Hotcomm)
6. Some people are very loyal in learning this indicator and the chats focus on learning one thing and one thing only. Which is good, especially for beginners
7. HotComm is a very good piece of software. Real-Time video of charts, sound, and chat make this a perfect venue for online education.
8. Woodies Mottos, âTraders helping tradersâ, âPositive Attitude and Positive Postâ, âThere will be better traders down the roadâ
9. Some traders getting help in other areas of trading such as the psychological aspects.
10. Some people claim Woodie has helped them to become consistently profitable
11. Woodie does not sell anything.
12. Woodie appears to be an honest, caring, trader who truly wishes to help others
13. A charity is benefited from those traders that profit using Woodies techniques. The Make-A-Wish Foundation. A worthwhile charity.
14. Really cool names for trades such as Zero-Line Reject , Shamu, Batman, slingshot and best of Las Vegas
15. The room is free
THE BAD
1. Hard for many people to understand these complex patterns
2. CCI works in strongly trending markets as my previous post shows, but in low trending markets is where CCI shows many whipsaws
3. Itâs Just another trading style which may or may not work for you.
4. A lot of responses have reported this site to be a little âCultâ like, I find this observation from many responders to be a little disturbing
5. The CBOT has hired Woodie to train traders on CCI. I think the CBOT traders will have many profitable months aheadâ¦.fading the moves
6. The CCI is no Holy Grail.
7. A quote from a user âTrades in the room are made for no apparent reason.â This will ultimately confuse newbies more than it helps
8. 500 participants in a chat. How could anyone possibly learn anything?
9. The room is free. But as my Father told me â you get what you pay for.
10. Some comments I have highlighted on this thread âChaos in the roomâ and âLeft on your own to figure things outâ
11. Why is there an almost iron hand insistence on using only CCI? There are lots of valid ways to trade
12. Experienced moderators who are very helpful teaching the techniques while they are struggling for profitability??????? Its free though. Just remember your losses arenât.
13. Matilda and Jgalt are two ET members that constantly report fudged trades.
14. âWoodie loves making calls after the fact. He'll alert you to a "possible" set-up, and then take credit for having "made the call", if it goes well. If it doesn't go well, it's never discussed again.â - jgalt
15. âI feel sad for all these people flocking to the room these days, lots of dreams will be shattered and many accounts will be destroyed. Most of these people do not realize how tough it is.â â bali survivor
âsometimes a "zero line reject" turns out to be a "shamu trade" and a "regular divergence" turns out to be a "reverse divergence" and a "vegas trade" turns out to be a "reverse divergence" and sometimes a "zero line reject" zig zags all the way through to the opposite side. IMHO the cci can be used in much better ways than these retarded rules.â Daxtrader
THE UGLY
1. Woodie apparently doesnât use other indicators in his room but Carolyn Borden Fib cluster is ok?
2. âLack of tolerance for dissenting opinions and the unwavering âworshipâ of the moderatorsâ - quote from ET member
3. Chat members and Moderators (croc1964) are willing to study the CCI indicator for endless hours without even knowing whether the techniques being shown have any statistical advantage in real-time trading. Scary!!
4. Possible Joint Venture profit sharing partnerships with E-signal, Carolyn Borden, 3-4 yearly seminars in Chicago, Florida, phoenix etc⦠There is a lot of money involved here. I personally would not mind but for the fact of the constant reminder that no one is compensated and nothing is sold. Come on people. Grow up. There is a lot of money here probably ½ million to a million dollars a year. Do you think Woodie might be the beneficiary of some of this revenue???
E-Signal total revenue total approx $500,000
HotComm revenue for 500 members ???
Trading workshops 500x 225 dollars $112,500 x 3 times a year $300,000
Links with Carolyn Boroden ??????
Thanks, but no thanks . Iâll pass.
Regards,
Dave Scott
As I understand it the group was started to "help new traders in light of the snake oil sales men and the sharks that are out in the industry".
I have difficulty coping with the item that he will be teaching the CBOT traders, how is this helping the newbie? Putting more money in the pocket of the floor traders who are daily playing games to milk the public?
I have difficulty coping with the item that he will be teaching the CBOT traders, how is this helping the newbie? Putting more money in the pocket of the floor traders who are daily playing games to milk the public?
LOL Dave, Not a completely unbiased summary. This is my not completely unbiased response.
I personally trade 3 different strategies on three timeframes. One of them, on the shortest timeframe is CCI and I have spent 8 months around the room. More recently I have spent less time so I think I qualify as only loosely a cult member and could comment on some of the things you have in your conclusions.
I found the room because I was looking for a third trading strategy. I swing/long term trade eod and I had a good half hourly countertrend strategy but I figured I could slip in some very short term trading while waiting for the half hourly signal. Both of my original strategies are profitable.
So somewhere I came across woodie's room. My personal cci trading style is just one trade the zlr .... which is a way of qualifying a rejection in a trend. I am not a purist and I recognize many of the posters here.
So, for what its worth, here are the comments of someone who trades a number of strategies but has gained from the room.
GENERAL
1. The room is about training people to use a set of strategies based on the CCI. They can be combined with the ema for trend, fibs to give an idea of where trades are likely to initiate and pivots. What the CCI, as used by Woodie, gives is an indicator that turns more quickly than a stoch or macd as a daytrading trigger. Used poorly this could result in extra whipsaws (see below)
2. The rejection of non-cci trading strategies. Thats because this is a training room not a market calling room or a lets just get together and discuss everything room. I trade with things other than the cci but if I introduce this all the time for new learners I will just confuse them. Some people keep introducing things because they think it will help, some for their ego gratification, but whatever, it confuses learners.
3. The "cult atmosphere." LOL, whoever introduced this has never been in a cult. But there is a strong "culture" and its not unlike the strength of culture in a company like Cisco where I used to work. If you are a rugged individualist trader and perhaps a cynic (maybe you came from IT where interpersonal skills are not the key employment criteria) then you may well find that the focus on being positive and the amount of love and appreciation expressed is cult like. My family didn't hug much either
ERRORS IN THE GOOD
7. Hotcomm is certainly much better than paltalk but I would not be too effusive in my praise.
ERRORS IN THE BAD
2. The CCI strategy I use works well in trending markets. The strategy that DAX refused to explain to the delightful person asking him is actually good in non-trending markets. Fitzy would take half of his trades in non-trending markets as well but countertrend trades do require faster more certain reactions that trend trades so new learners are usually warned to save them for later.
4. LOL ... see comments above ... there is a strong culture of positiveness and appreciation that is sometimes hard for a reserved kiwi or a brit to take - not sure about other nationalities.
5. I doubt that but its a common strategy that I recall Joe DiNapoli and others espousing - understand it, figure out when it breaks, develop a fading strategy. Actually you can use some of woodie's trades to help you with it if you want.
7. The moderators try to ensure that people post there entries when they enter and their exits along with the reasons for both. There is variable success with this and there was recently a drive to try to improve it - but they do not have cult like control and are not totally successful.
8. 500 people is the very reason that discussions that are off focus during the trading sessions are discouraged. And people that are disruptive get bounced sometimes. You learn by listening, watching, trading in parallel and then asking for help with trades you were not happy with afterward the trading slows down.
9. Apparently your father was a cynic. He may also not have realised that in trading you frequently get much less than you pay for as witnessed by participants from various paid chat rooms and flawed courses. If you don't do the work you will end up with no improvement in your trading at woodie's room .... you need to make the effort.
10. I think that at times and for some members this could well be a true experience. It wasn't for me.
11. Its a training room. I haven't heard Woodie say "there are no other ways"; what he does say is "you need to keep it simple so that you can react quickly" .... so no other indicators on the charts while you learn. Brett Steenbarger has written an excellent book on trading psychology and has some free articles on his site that look at how you learn a fast paced trading style - you need to be very focused during the learning phase.
12. The person described as a moderator who said his trading was struggling to be profitable was not a "moderator" at the time - in fact he refused to moderate because he was concerned about his trading. I know him personally and his issues were not with the cci but psychological trigger pulling issues. He does spend quite a bit of aftermarket time explaining cci trades and I believe he is now profitable --- but real consistent profitability is something I personally would not measure in only a few months.
13. Matilda and Jgalt have a perception - you would also find others who have the opposite opinion.
14. I don't know the example so I cant actually comment. It sounded like a bit of a scrap if I recall jgalts post so it could be true of that situation.
15. Bali Survivor included that comment in a post where he claimed that I was his protege. Your quote is one of a number of pontifications he made in that posting ... he also claimed that the room was affecting the es and that the recent spikes in the euro could have been caused by the room. Lets get real about those comments ... and take the other pontification with the same grain of salt.
Just look at the posting he made after your summary. I like him but some of his statements seem a little off track.
Daxtraders comments are interesting. That is one persons view and if I am right about who he is (he might tell me tonight) he is very much a countertrend trader. There do seem to be quite a number of people who can successfully interpret them - for example a loose definition of a shamu seems like most failed zlrs. Its good that he has a strategy that works for him.
THE UGLY
1. Woodie doesn't use fib clusters himself. But quite a number in the room seem to and (my perception) he let Carolyn give some sessions. She seems to use a couple of the cci trades as confirmation of her clusters. I haven't seen her around for a while though.
2. Another of matildas posts. Matilda finishes that post with the statement "On balance I find woodie's room to be a very useful resource in the world of trading."
3. Individuals might be unscientific about it - that is probably true whatever technique you are talking about. I spent months backtesting and refining the entries and exits that I take as a result of what I learnt in the room. The rates and the expectancies are excellent. I then forward tested them for months on paper before I moved to initially small trades, identifying the issues at each step and improving my strategies.
4. Do I think Woodie is getting kickbacks. No. Every bit of evidence points away from that conclusion. Do I think Esignal might be paying some members of the room for their "help" - possibly, it appeals to the conspiracy theorist in me, but I don't know. Personally I am cheap so I use Sierracharts and IB (which is why I had an hour to write this response to your post --- I couldn't get onto Sierra's server to validate my license ... esignal suddenly sounds a little less expensive)
I cant prove that Woodie doesn't get paid for this stuff (sorry I am not at the core of the cult (lol)) but all the evidence is that he genuinely wants to teach and that he gets his satisfaction from that and the appreciation people have for what he has done. Altruism is a much argued but valid motivation.
RECOMMENDATION
The room is a good place for some people to learn. It doesn't work for many - you see them come and go - and I think that was true when the room was small or when its big. Its a workable strategy and if you focus on it and ignore other approaches while you learn (so that u can learn) then it might let you learn to be an effective day trader.
Dave, it sounds like you already know how to trade your own strategy so I doubt you should look further at the room. If your own thing fails you in future you might want to take another look --- but I suggest you do it in person if you really want to find out if it would work for you.
I personally trade 3 different strategies on three timeframes. One of them, on the shortest timeframe is CCI and I have spent 8 months around the room. More recently I have spent less time so I think I qualify as only loosely a cult member and could comment on some of the things you have in your conclusions.
I found the room because I was looking for a third trading strategy. I swing/long term trade eod and I had a good half hourly countertrend strategy but I figured I could slip in some very short term trading while waiting for the half hourly signal. Both of my original strategies are profitable.
So somewhere I came across woodie's room. My personal cci trading style is just one trade the zlr .... which is a way of qualifying a rejection in a trend. I am not a purist and I recognize many of the posters here.
So, for what its worth, here are the comments of someone who trades a number of strategies but has gained from the room.
GENERAL
1. The room is about training people to use a set of strategies based on the CCI. They can be combined with the ema for trend, fibs to give an idea of where trades are likely to initiate and pivots. What the CCI, as used by Woodie, gives is an indicator that turns more quickly than a stoch or macd as a daytrading trigger. Used poorly this could result in extra whipsaws (see below)
2. The rejection of non-cci trading strategies. Thats because this is a training room not a market calling room or a lets just get together and discuss everything room. I trade with things other than the cci but if I introduce this all the time for new learners I will just confuse them. Some people keep introducing things because they think it will help, some for their ego gratification, but whatever, it confuses learners.
3. The "cult atmosphere." LOL, whoever introduced this has never been in a cult. But there is a strong "culture" and its not unlike the strength of culture in a company like Cisco where I used to work. If you are a rugged individualist trader and perhaps a cynic (maybe you came from IT where interpersonal skills are not the key employment criteria) then you may well find that the focus on being positive and the amount of love and appreciation expressed is cult like. My family didn't hug much either
ERRORS IN THE GOOD
7. Hotcomm is certainly much better than paltalk but I would not be too effusive in my praise.
ERRORS IN THE BAD
2. The CCI strategy I use works well in trending markets. The strategy that DAX refused to explain to the delightful person asking him is actually good in non-trending markets. Fitzy would take half of his trades in non-trending markets as well but countertrend trades do require faster more certain reactions that trend trades so new learners are usually warned to save them for later.
4. LOL ... see comments above ... there is a strong culture of positiveness and appreciation that is sometimes hard for a reserved kiwi or a brit to take - not sure about other nationalities.
5. I doubt that but its a common strategy that I recall Joe DiNapoli and others espousing - understand it, figure out when it breaks, develop a fading strategy. Actually you can use some of woodie's trades to help you with it if you want.
7. The moderators try to ensure that people post there entries when they enter and their exits along with the reasons for both. There is variable success with this and there was recently a drive to try to improve it - but they do not have cult like control and are not totally successful.
8. 500 people is the very reason that discussions that are off focus during the trading sessions are discouraged. And people that are disruptive get bounced sometimes. You learn by listening, watching, trading in parallel and then asking for help with trades you were not happy with afterward the trading slows down.
9. Apparently your father was a cynic. He may also not have realised that in trading you frequently get much less than you pay for as witnessed by participants from various paid chat rooms and flawed courses. If you don't do the work you will end up with no improvement in your trading at woodie's room .... you need to make the effort.
10. I think that at times and for some members this could well be a true experience. It wasn't for me.
11. Its a training room. I haven't heard Woodie say "there are no other ways"; what he does say is "you need to keep it simple so that you can react quickly" .... so no other indicators on the charts while you learn. Brett Steenbarger has written an excellent book on trading psychology and has some free articles on his site that look at how you learn a fast paced trading style - you need to be very focused during the learning phase.
12. The person described as a moderator who said his trading was struggling to be profitable was not a "moderator" at the time - in fact he refused to moderate because he was concerned about his trading. I know him personally and his issues were not with the cci but psychological trigger pulling issues. He does spend quite a bit of aftermarket time explaining cci trades and I believe he is now profitable --- but real consistent profitability is something I personally would not measure in only a few months.
13. Matilda and Jgalt have a perception - you would also find others who have the opposite opinion.
14. I don't know the example so I cant actually comment. It sounded like a bit of a scrap if I recall jgalts post so it could be true of that situation.
15. Bali Survivor included that comment in a post where he claimed that I was his protege. Your quote is one of a number of pontifications he made in that posting ... he also claimed that the room was affecting the es and that the recent spikes in the euro could have been caused by the room. Lets get real about those comments ... and take the other pontification with the same grain of salt.
Just look at the posting he made after your summary. I like him but some of his statements seem a little off track.
Daxtraders comments are interesting. That is one persons view and if I am right about who he is (he might tell me tonight) he is very much a countertrend trader. There do seem to be quite a number of people who can successfully interpret them - for example a loose definition of a shamu seems like most failed zlrs. Its good that he has a strategy that works for him.
THE UGLY
1. Woodie doesn't use fib clusters himself. But quite a number in the room seem to and (my perception) he let Carolyn give some sessions. She seems to use a couple of the cci trades as confirmation of her clusters. I haven't seen her around for a while though.
2. Another of matildas posts. Matilda finishes that post with the statement "On balance I find woodie's room to be a very useful resource in the world of trading."
3. Individuals might be unscientific about it - that is probably true whatever technique you are talking about. I spent months backtesting and refining the entries and exits that I take as a result of what I learnt in the room. The rates and the expectancies are excellent. I then forward tested them for months on paper before I moved to initially small trades, identifying the issues at each step and improving my strategies.
4. Do I think Woodie is getting kickbacks. No. Every bit of evidence points away from that conclusion. Do I think Esignal might be paying some members of the room for their "help" - possibly, it appeals to the conspiracy theorist in me, but I don't know. Personally I am cheap so I use Sierracharts and IB (which is why I had an hour to write this response to your post --- I couldn't get onto Sierra's server to validate my license ... esignal suddenly sounds a little less expensive
)I cant prove that Woodie doesn't get paid for this stuff (sorry I am not at the core of the cult (lol)) but all the evidence is that he genuinely wants to teach and that he gets his satisfaction from that and the appreciation people have for what he has done. Altruism is a much argued but valid motivation.
RECOMMENDATION
The room is a good place for some people to learn. It doesn't work for many - you see them come and go - and I think that was true when the room was small or when its big. Its a workable strategy and if you focus on it and ignore other approaches while you learn (so that u can learn) then it might let you learn to be an effective day trader.
Dave, it sounds like you already know how to trade your own strategy so I doubt you should look further at the room. If your own thing fails you in future you might want to take another look --- but I suggest you do it in person if you really want to find out if it would work for you.
Kiwi,
You do not seem to have read my later posting after I discovered your different interpretation of my posting.
That in its own says enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Do not feed the trolls, the trolls live of negativity.
You do not seem to have read my later posting after I discovered your different interpretation of my posting.
That in its own says enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Do not feed the trolls, the trolls live of negativity.
Bali
I did read your second posting where you explained that mistake in your first posting but so much of what you posted seems to reflect a lack of or a distorted understanding.
Look at your latest posting "I have difficulty coping with the item that he will be teaching the CBOT traders, how is this helping the newbie? Putting more money in the pocket of the floor traders who are daily playing games to milk the public? "
Why are you reacting to what someone says in this thread without thinking about it? You react as though Woodie is trying to help floor traders milk the public. Think about it. Ask someone if it doesn't make sense .... my understanding is that the CBOT provides seminar capability locally and over the internet so that anyone can listen and decide whether they find value in what he says or not. People who read this thread could make first hand decisions instead of reading everyones perceptions, deletions and distortions.
Your signature line says "Do not feed the trolls, the trolls live off negativity." Instead of building on negativity, why not live by that excellent signature line.
Kiwi
I did read your second posting where you explained that mistake in your first posting but so much of what you posted seems to reflect a lack of or a distorted understanding.
Look at your latest posting "I have difficulty coping with the item that he will be teaching the CBOT traders, how is this helping the newbie? Putting more money in the pocket of the floor traders who are daily playing games to milk the public? "
Why are you reacting to what someone says in this thread without thinking about it? You react as though Woodie is trying to help floor traders milk the public. Think about it. Ask someone if it doesn't make sense .... my understanding is that the CBOT provides seminar capability locally and over the internet so that anyone can listen and decide whether they find value in what he says or not. People who read this thread could make first hand decisions instead of reading everyones perceptions, deletions and distortions.
Your signature line says "Do not feed the trolls, the trolls live off negativity." Instead of building on negativity, why not live by that excellent signature line.
Kiwi
Let me add a few facts to this debate.
To say that woodies room has 500+ members suggests that they are all active participants - this is not the case. I would be surprised if more than 50 ever participate in the room. This is like saying that elitetrader has 22000 members and all active participants.
The stated objective to make the room as big as possible will therefore not improve the quality of the room and indeed brings into question the motive behind such an objective. Could it be financial perhaps?
One of my main concerns is the manner in which intelligent people are treated in the room. Of course, in any cult, free and intelligent thought is suppressed for the greater good of the cult.
Messages were posted in the room by moderators ordering members to register for the cbot seminar by woodie so that numbers could be inflated thereby adding some sort of mystical validity to woodie and the cci method. Any intelligent person would find this offensive.
After the seminar messages were posted asking members to email cbot praising woodies seminar and requesting that cbot desist in asking any of the other 'gurus' to give seminars. Again offensive.
When this thread first appeared, a message was flashed every few minutes in the room advocating that members flock here to counter the anti-room opinions.
And people here still try to suggest that it is not a cult???
To say that woodies room has 500+ members suggests that they are all active participants - this is not the case. I would be surprised if more than 50 ever participate in the room. This is like saying that elitetrader has 22000 members and all active participants.
The stated objective to make the room as big as possible will therefore not improve the quality of the room and indeed brings into question the motive behind such an objective. Could it be financial perhaps?
One of my main concerns is the manner in which intelligent people are treated in the room. Of course, in any cult, free and intelligent thought is suppressed for the greater good of the cult.
Messages were posted in the room by moderators ordering members to register for the cbot seminar by woodie so that numbers could be inflated thereby adding some sort of mystical validity to woodie and the cci method. Any intelligent person would find this offensive.
After the seminar messages were posted asking members to email cbot praising woodies seminar and requesting that cbot desist in asking any of the other 'gurus' to give seminars. Again offensive.
When this thread first appeared, a message was flashed every few minutes in the room advocating that members flock here to counter the anti-room opinions.
And people here still try to suggest that it is not a cult???
I feel a certain degree of trepidation posting any further comments to this debate as opinions seem to be somewhat entrenched by this stage. However, for any readers still with an open mind, I will make a couple of comments based on my own personal experience of woodie and the CCI room.
Firstly, let me establish my own credentials (or perhaps lack of them). I am not a big shot trader: I'd barely dare to say I'm successful at this stage. Indeed, I'm not even full time yet, so if this invalidates my comments then please do not even bother to read on. However, I have tuned into woodie's room since paltalk days (and subsequently in HotComm), but I am not in the room most days. I also met woodie a year ago at a CCI traders get together in Florida (but more on that later).
My purpose in putting down these thoughts is just to offer a slightly different perspective and perhaps offer a little clarification. Most importantly, I think many posts here have fundamentally missed the gist of what I believe woodie is trying to teach (and I stress, these are my thoughts, not his). Firstly, please be clear that woodie does not in any way, shape or form suggest that the CCI is the only viable way of trading profitably. Rather, his opinion is that it is all you need. My take on this is that woodie is teaching simplicity and mastery. Rather than endlessly chasing the latest indicator or combination of indicators, woodie teaches that what you really need is to take one approach (he obviously recommends CCI), combine it with discipline and money management, and then truly master it. He never suggests this will be easy, quick or without frustration. But if you put in the necessary screen time and chose to really understand this one approach, it can give you the edge to become profitable. It may just be me, but on my trading journey I have been guilty of chopping and changing my approach always looking for the magic formula. woodie teaches a different approach. He has shown over and over again that he can make profits from CCI alone - even without prices - and that this is therefore a realistic goal for others. Does this mean that everyone else will achieve it? Obviously not. But there are a good number in the room posting in real time who are clearly profitably (some even post now directly from their front end so the accusations of hindsight are perhaps a little disingenuous, at least in these cases). Would they be profitable with other approaches? Probably, but in my opinion, that is not the point. woodie is showing that as a trader or aspiring trader you have a choice - rather than constantly looking at new approaches, indicators, strategies etc you can have a go at mastering something that he has shown can be made to work. I for one think that is an interesting option, but we're all free to make our own choices.
Following on from this, perhaps a number of confusions can be clarified.
Firstly, why doesn't the room discuss alternative/complimentary approaches? Well, it does, especially after hours and at weekends. But, if I am correct above, woodie's point is to demonstrate that you do not need anything else and rather than looking for crutches in additional indicators you are better off focussing you effort on really understanding the nuances of one indicator. I think for many (myself included) this is a hard lesson to learn as we'd rather believe an extra indicator will provide a short cut to increased profits. I have seen a moderator put up charts with an extra line on and suddenly that's all anyone wants to talk about. If people want to learn CCI there needs to be focus and discipline (especially with 500 in the room) so the moderators now stick to CCI (with a couple of moving averages). Indeed, woodie positively espouses simplicity - he believes multiple indicators or time frames put doubts into your mind cause stress (but some others in the room are successful in their own trading combining CCI with other indicators or utilizing more than one time frame). Note that I use the word simplicity - being simple should not be confused with being easy - they are not necessarily synonyms. To me, woodie, as a trader, is the ultimate craftsman and it is an approach I have come to have the highest respect for.
I trust I don't need to comment on those who chose to slag off moderators simply because they don't like their style or put down an on-line community by labelling it as a cult.
I would however like to deal with the insinuation that woodie and/or others involved in the room are somehow 'on the make'. Firstly, some doubt that anyone can want to help others learn a skill they possess, especially in an environment like trading where they are likely to become your competitor, unless there's some form of monetary reward. I wouldn't give anyone advise on how to trade at this stage of my learning, but I have achieved some modicum of expertise and success in my non-trading life. I am routinely asked to give talks and workshops on these particular skills and experiences. I do this a number of times a year because I find it genuinely rewarding but I do not charge. Why? Well, I'm lucky enough to have other sources of income (my 'day job' as a company CEO and my trading) and therefore I can do these activities without the baggage that comes with being paid. I guess you either get this or you don't. Perhaps it's just a character flaw amongst some of us, but I think woodie and the moderators of his room fall into the same category.
I met Woodies at a CCI traders get-together in Florida last year. I think about 70 of us attended. There was no fee - just $50 towards the costs of the conference room with the surplus given to Make A Wish. Several of us tried to contribute to woodie's costs (flight and room) but he insisted on covering them out of his own pocket. Some didn't understand why as this was clearly the least he deserved, but I sensed he felt the same way I do about my speaking engagements and the potential baggage payment brings. Anyway, this is not a man on the make but rather a man who has, in my opinion, found a purpose for this stage of his life. He wants to help traders avoid some of the challenges he experienced earlier in his trading career and if he can help some needy families and children along the way then he's doing a better job than I am of making the world a slightly better place.
Finally, for what it's worth, my own experiences trading with CCI. When I first found the room on paltalk I didn't even have a charting package with CCI on it, but I found it helpful listening to woodie talk about his trading and trading philosophy as well as reading some of the posts. Eventually I got charts with CCI and tried it out (probably for a week or so) but didn't really make any money. So I was off again looking for the adaptation or next thing that would make it work for me. This went on once the room moved to HotComm and I'd drop in whenever I could but usually carry on trading my own thing. Some few weeks ago, as I move closer to full time trading, I realized I need to stop this fruitless search (the old holy grail thing) and just find something I can make work to give me a monthly paycheck and I decided to master CCI. This was not because I believe it is necessarily the best way to trade (let alone the only way) but because I have seen it work and I think I might be able to master it a little quicker as I have access to some traders making it work on a daily basis. It's too early to judge the results - I'm profitable most days but then I've had this before using many different approaches. My goal is slightly different now though. I want to make money but I too want to become a trading craftsman the way I believe woodie is, mastering one approach. I don't expect it to be quick and I don't expect it to be easy. And I do expect it to be frustrating. But then that's trading.
Anyway, I hope this brings a little bit of clarification.
tradertony
Firstly, let me establish my own credentials (or perhaps lack of them). I am not a big shot trader: I'd barely dare to say I'm successful at this stage. Indeed, I'm not even full time yet, so if this invalidates my comments then please do not even bother to read on. However, I have tuned into woodie's room since paltalk days (and subsequently in HotComm), but I am not in the room most days. I also met woodie a year ago at a CCI traders get together in Florida (but more on that later).
My purpose in putting down these thoughts is just to offer a slightly different perspective and perhaps offer a little clarification. Most importantly, I think many posts here have fundamentally missed the gist of what I believe woodie is trying to teach (and I stress, these are my thoughts, not his). Firstly, please be clear that woodie does not in any way, shape or form suggest that the CCI is the only viable way of trading profitably. Rather, his opinion is that it is all you need. My take on this is that woodie is teaching simplicity and mastery. Rather than endlessly chasing the latest indicator or combination of indicators, woodie teaches that what you really need is to take one approach (he obviously recommends CCI), combine it with discipline and money management, and then truly master it. He never suggests this will be easy, quick or without frustration. But if you put in the necessary screen time and chose to really understand this one approach, it can give you the edge to become profitable. It may just be me, but on my trading journey I have been guilty of chopping and changing my approach always looking for the magic formula. woodie teaches a different approach. He has shown over and over again that he can make profits from CCI alone - even without prices - and that this is therefore a realistic goal for others. Does this mean that everyone else will achieve it? Obviously not. But there are a good number in the room posting in real time who are clearly profitably (some even post now directly from their front end so the accusations of hindsight are perhaps a little disingenuous, at least in these cases). Would they be profitable with other approaches? Probably, but in my opinion, that is not the point. woodie is showing that as a trader or aspiring trader you have a choice - rather than constantly looking at new approaches, indicators, strategies etc you can have a go at mastering something that he has shown can be made to work. I for one think that is an interesting option, but we're all free to make our own choices.
Following on from this, perhaps a number of confusions can be clarified.
Firstly, why doesn't the room discuss alternative/complimentary approaches? Well, it does, especially after hours and at weekends. But, if I am correct above, woodie's point is to demonstrate that you do not need anything else and rather than looking for crutches in additional indicators you are better off focussing you effort on really understanding the nuances of one indicator. I think for many (myself included) this is a hard lesson to learn as we'd rather believe an extra indicator will provide a short cut to increased profits. I have seen a moderator put up charts with an extra line on and suddenly that's all anyone wants to talk about. If people want to learn CCI there needs to be focus and discipline (especially with 500 in the room) so the moderators now stick to CCI (with a couple of moving averages). Indeed, woodie positively espouses simplicity - he believes multiple indicators or time frames put doubts into your mind cause stress (but some others in the room are successful in their own trading combining CCI with other indicators or utilizing more than one time frame). Note that I use the word simplicity - being simple should not be confused with being easy - they are not necessarily synonyms. To me, woodie, as a trader, is the ultimate craftsman and it is an approach I have come to have the highest respect for.
I trust I don't need to comment on those who chose to slag off moderators simply because they don't like their style or put down an on-line community by labelling it as a cult.
I would however like to deal with the insinuation that woodie and/or others involved in the room are somehow 'on the make'. Firstly, some doubt that anyone can want to help others learn a skill they possess, especially in an environment like trading where they are likely to become your competitor, unless there's some form of monetary reward. I wouldn't give anyone advise on how to trade at this stage of my learning, but I have achieved some modicum of expertise and success in my non-trading life. I am routinely asked to give talks and workshops on these particular skills and experiences. I do this a number of times a year because I find it genuinely rewarding but I do not charge. Why? Well, I'm lucky enough to have other sources of income (my 'day job' as a company CEO and my trading) and therefore I can do these activities without the baggage that comes with being paid. I guess you either get this or you don't. Perhaps it's just a character flaw amongst some of us, but I think woodie and the moderators of his room fall into the same category.
I met Woodies at a CCI traders get-together in Florida last year. I think about 70 of us attended. There was no fee - just $50 towards the costs of the conference room with the surplus given to Make A Wish. Several of us tried to contribute to woodie's costs (flight and room) but he insisted on covering them out of his own pocket. Some didn't understand why as this was clearly the least he deserved, but I sensed he felt the same way I do about my speaking engagements and the potential baggage payment brings. Anyway, this is not a man on the make but rather a man who has, in my opinion, found a purpose for this stage of his life. He wants to help traders avoid some of the challenges he experienced earlier in his trading career and if he can help some needy families and children along the way then he's doing a better job than I am of making the world a slightly better place.
Finally, for what it's worth, my own experiences trading with CCI. When I first found the room on paltalk I didn't even have a charting package with CCI on it, but I found it helpful listening to woodie talk about his trading and trading philosophy as well as reading some of the posts. Eventually I got charts with CCI and tried it out (probably for a week or so) but didn't really make any money. So I was off again looking for the adaptation or next thing that would make it work for me. This went on once the room moved to HotComm and I'd drop in whenever I could but usually carry on trading my own thing. Some few weeks ago, as I move closer to full time trading, I realized I need to stop this fruitless search (the old holy grail thing) and just find something I can make work to give me a monthly paycheck and I decided to master CCI. This was not because I believe it is necessarily the best way to trade (let alone the only way) but because I have seen it work and I think I might be able to master it a little quicker as I have access to some traders making it work on a daily basis. It's too early to judge the results - I'm profitable most days but then I've had this before using many different approaches. My goal is slightly different now though. I want to make money but I too want to become a trading craftsman the way I believe woodie is, mastering one approach. I don't expect it to be quick and I don't expect it to be easy. And I do expect it to be frustrating. But then that's trading.
Anyway, I hope this brings a little bit of clarification.
tradertony
Kiwi
I have raised a number of questions / issues from observations which can be verified.
Instead of providing some explanations and adressing these issues I now get labeled as having a "distorted view".
No more discussion on this is necessary, the people in this room will make their own conclusions.
I have raised a number of questions / issues from observations which can be verified.
Instead of providing some explanations and adressing these issues I now get labeled as having a "distorted view".
No more discussion on this is necessary, the people in this room will make their own conclusions.
- Status