Who gets the "Props" for training..?

G

Gr8Veto

I'm a recent graduate of The Univ. of Texas with a degree in Finance. And after looking into several options in banking I've decided to go the route of proprietary trading. I've just signed on with Kershner Trading (Austin, TX) contingent upon passing the Series 7 exam. I'm really attracted to the flexibility and growth potential within the industry.

What I'd really like is to get some feedback from Traders who have worked for or are currently working for Prop firms in terms of their training and Trader development.

Don B. one thing that that I noticed on the Bright Trading site is that you highlighted Darren Clifford. It appears that he came on with you guys then went on to establish his own "affiliate" of the company. I'd be interested to hear about that option as a career path for traders that come on with Bright.

Also in general, I'd like to get feedback on different career paths ET'ers have taken starting out with a prop shops and the success and failures they've experienced.

Thanks in advance
 
Quote from Verick:

I'm a recent graduate of The Univ. of Texas with a degree in Finance. And after looking into several options in banking I've decided to go the route of proprietary trading. I've just signed on with Kershner Trading (Austin, TX) contingent upon passing the Series 7 exam. I'm really attracted to the flexibility and growth potential within the industry.

What I'd really like is to get some feedback from Traders who have worked for or are currently working for Prop firms in terms of their training and Trader development.

Don B. one thing that that I noticed on the Bright Trading site is that you highlighted Darren Clifford. It appears that he came on with you guys then went on to establish his own "affiliate" of the company. I'd be interested to hear about that option as a career path for traders that come on with Bright.

Also in general, I'd like to get feedback on different career paths ET'ers have taken starting out with a prop shops and the success and failures they've experienced.

Thanks in advance
More...

From: www.stocktrading.com/training.html (I finally posted this after I typed in on elite trader a zillion times, LOL).

What separates our training from the "pack" of nonsense presented to the public? It takes, in general, over a $million to make a decent living in this business. Most "gurus" and "experts" try to convince the unwary that they can take $20,000 and make a bunch of money in the markets. Well, that's nearly impossible. Our traders have a big edge over retail customers because they can "use" (not "abuse") a $million or more of our capital by funding their account with around $20,000 or so. This available capital doesn't mean you simply "buy more shares" or anything like that (although, you can as your comfort level increases). What this does mean is that YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN STRATEGIES THAT ACTUALLY WORK VS. "Picking a Stock's direction" or "Picking the overall direction of the market."


I don't say the above to, in any way, deride any retail trader... I simply feel that it is much easier to make money when you can use capital.

Regarding affliates: In the past we actually acted as an "incubator" for those who started other Firms. We decided that instead of creating possible competition, we would allow those with the drive and skill to develop a trading organization, we would help them develop within our organization. Darren Clifford, PairCo, S&S Trading, BlueHill Capital, and others that you might not even know were BT locations.

Anyway, as always, feel free to check the website and give me a call to chat if you like.

Don
 
Thank you Don for the response, but you didn't really answer the question. Based on some of your other posts I can tell that you feel the leverage Bright offers is an edge. However, as a recent college grad I don't have 20G's to lever. And at this point I'm more interested in exactly how new traders are TRAINED to trade profitably...
 
Understand completely Mr. Verick.

What good does it do to have a "million $s of capital" to invest/trade if trader does not have experience as stock market trader.

Training, as to where to successfully deploy this "million $s of capital" if one is young or inexperienced as some traders are, is more important than large leverage.

This is why when trader is looking at joining Prop firm one needs to look at strengths/weaknesses of each Prop firm.

While some Props don't provide as much leverage as others some provide more training. If trader does not have capital to deposit or enough experience at trading then Kershner Trading could be good place to start.
 
Let’s come back to this. Based on some of the threads that I’ve seen since I originally started this post I figure there are a lot of other new traders on ET that could benefit from a little insight from you “seasoned” (cough old cough) guys… I know this isn’t as fun for you guys to talking about as someone “…blowing up the Brights” but come on, give something back. But since opposition seems to be key to participation here maybe I can create some…

In the black corner… “Lights” an apparent proponent of “true props”

Quote from Lights:

True prop firms that back traders split profits because they offer net directional, non hedged portfolio trading. they share risk and share profits accordingly. I am familiar with places offering trading books to $20MM net long positions.

your firm is pairs trading and Limit on Open strategies where the "capital" allocation is rarely maxed and strategies have capped risk.

Perhaps you'd like to define the apple and the orange before comparing the two.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100552&perpage=6&pagenumber=5
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And in red ;-) “Tha Don” sponsor of the “Prop Firms” forum, and allegedly the “anti-truth”

Quote from Don Bright:

Just wanted to make a comment about, what seems to be, an ongoing discussion, with some confusion, about "putting money up" to run your business vs. being hired and splitting profits.

I think a great number of my traders have taken out all the money they have put up, thus simply leaving funds in accounts just like the "true prop" firms require (for the most part). And, in my mind, it makes little sense to split your profits for a lifetime in lieu of putting in some money that you can immediately take out when profitable (no 12 month waiting period).

Just a comment,

Don

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100552&perpage=6&pagenumber=2
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DON

Now from what I’ve seen you will respond to a lot of posts. This made me more disappointed that you didn’t give me a more direct response to my question. So I figured, “…maybe I should just go to the website.” and so I did. I will admit my question about how you train traders is definitely there and well answered, with shotty outdated web formatting, but nonetheless… The only question that remains is what does bright have to offer someone like myself, ie: young and open to knowledge, but lacking capital. It appears that your best option is to pay about $1,000 to go to a class, but then what…?

Here’s another post that you never responded to that could help me gain a better understanding of the Bright way of doing things…

Quote from scorpion:

don, a trader has to deposit risk capital to open a account with you correct? they still must maintain risk capital in their account or has that changed with your firm? confused with your post, can you clarify, thanks

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100552&perpage=6&pagenumber=3
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…thanks in advance for your response, sir.
 
LIGHTS

I could be wrong but you seem to be a quasi-knowledgeable proponent of “TRUE” prop firms where your are “hired and backed”… But, at what point does it no longer make sense to “…split your profits for a lifetime in lieu of putting in some money..” My question for you is what do you see as a career path for someone with an entrepreneurial spirit and eyes on the ever increasing “Trader Monthly Top 100” pot of gold..? I’m not looking for quick money, but beginning as professional trader at 23, I don’t see why the sky wouldn’t be the limit…

...thanks to you for playing, sir.
 
One more thing Sir Don

Also, in regards to future entrepreneurial opportunities… In your most discouraging and cynical post that I have read you wrote…

Quote from Don Bright:

(Smiling at some of the replies, LOL).

OK, I have gone through this a few times on the board, but here is the basic route to starting a Firm.

1. Buy a seat on an exchange, or, if nothing else, join the NASD as a broker dealer.

2. Find a good clearing firm to clear your trades. Capital contribution varies from firm to firm, I think Goldman has a minimum of $10mil or so (others are probably a lot lower).

3. Find a really (really) good Compliance Officer to help you through the regulatory hurdles.

4. Come up with a good method of risk control to protect your money, and to protect the traders from themselves.

5. Find a group that makes good money, and hopefully they will provide "value added" to attract new traders and traders from other firms. Notice I said "attract" not "recruit" - not a good idea.

A little history....after a couple of our mangagers started Van Buren Securties a few years back, followed by my trader(s) starting Echo trade (which merged with Van Buren, and then became part of Pax Clearing, and ultimately Merrill Lynch), my brother and I decided that it was not a good idea to "create competition" from within. (Nothing wrong with competition, however).....Better to "reward initiative" by setting up ways for highly energized traders to "run a company within our company" - with incentives for doing so. This has worked quite well for us and the traders (PairCo, affiliates, BTM and DFG groups, S &S Trading, etc.). We look forward to assisting others in this arena.

All the best,

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97462&perpage=6&pagenumber=3
Don
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Well good sir, I saw no mention of these “incentives” on the website. And yes Don, I could call you and you could tell me about them, but that would just leave someone else wondering. So why not tell us all… about the incentives. You’re a good salesman (no negative connotation intended) show us the dream!

…thank you in advance for your response, sir.
 
I'm definitely one of the few people, if not the only person, to go from trading my little $12k account at E*trade and Suretrade to running a multi-million dollar hedge fund and for me the choice was simple.

I could've easily gone to a prop firm or many of these other places that offer tremendous leverage, but I've never used leverage (OK one time, I went over my available cash, but only by 10%) and leverage scares me. I'd be scared to risk that much on any one trade, especially because I trade volatile-ass microcaps.

I would've just keep trading my million or so alone, but I started my fund in order to reduce my personal risk. At my peak, I was down to about 30% of fund assets which allowed me a great risk/reward ratio. But as you'll read in my upcoming book, I don't recommend starting a hedge fund from scratch as trading strategies come and go too quickly and the industry isn't kind to startups. I do recommend trying to work for a large firm and learning from the experiences of others.

Edge is thrown around in this business waaaay too much, it's more about experience, adaptability and connections
 
Hi Verick,

Here is a great thread on the Bright Trading training.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63056

If you want to learn how to trade consistently.
It will either take.
1. Many many years, read lots of trading books, studying markets, losing lots of money. Read more books, trade more, and never give up. Finally rewarded when you discover their own edge and discipline in the markets.
or
2. Happen to know someone already successful to mentor you and willing to teach you. This is rare because someone of this caliber will not help a stranger and divulge his personal edge.

If you already know how to trade consistently and have limited capital, joining Bright is a good idea. Bright provides the leverage needed for certain strategies such has opening orders and pairs trading. Or the leverage you need to take advantage of you're own edge.

Good Luck!
 
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