Who broke the USA ?

Quote from futurecurrents:

Good comments. I just want to add a few things that were not talked about enough IMO.

First off....it is not the end of the US. The US is still the greatest nation on earth and will be for quite some. Reports of it's death are just hysterics and not rooted in reality. Some folks need to get a grip.

Citizen's United and the equating of dollars to votes. Oligarchy. There is too much power of money within the gov. Corporations are not people.

Rand Paul, like his father and Libertarianism in general sounds good at first, but deeper down the policies are impractical and the philosophy is savagery. We are better than "every man for himself". For instance, their idea of eliminating the EPA - a Republican president's idea- is simply stupid. But I love half of what they say. It's the other half that's the problem.

The top 1% control 40% of the wealth. For the sake of justice and economic vitality, this must change. And it would not even be so bad if money did not equal political power as it does now.

The 3 trillion dollar Iraq war....letting Wall St and the bankers run amok (leading to the 2008 collapse) and tax breaks for the wealthy.

A minimum wage that is not enough to live on.

The greatest nation on earth? That is your bias speaking. We have the most debt, the most wars, the biggest deficit, nowhere near the best education, nowhere near par in health care services. In most terms, we are lacking far behind other nations.

One more thing is that Paul is a constitutionalists. States have the right to regulate things like environmental protection. The anti-federalists like Paul advocate a moral local approach that would give the people more say. There is also a proprerty rights issue with pollution in that polluting someone else's property is like throwing garbage on it. The current system picks and chooses who is connected enough to pollute and who isn't. It should be locals who decide this - not a group of lawyers from DC.

It's not "every many for himself". Right now we have "man vs corporation" and we would all be better off in competitive environments rather than heavily-regulated top-down-controlled bureaucracies. It's a dumb idea to give a room of government employees full control over the environment because the odds of them abusing their authority are far higher than the odds they will do any good.

I understand wealth distribution differently, the 1% control the wealth because they are writing all the laws to protect themselves at the rest of the nation's expense. If we had a more organic system of government where states had to collaborate instead of the federal government using force, the markets would be more stable and individual voices would have more so.

I agree that Citizen's united is a scam and you'd need to work to get 2/3 state legislators to amend the constitution. The corrupt supreme court has sold out the country to foreign corporations. Think about it - there is no open disclosure for campaign funding. Any Chinese can open a US corporation, pump in billions and win the election without anyone knowing.

Unfortunately though, unless the individual's civil rights such as due process, right to trial by jury, etc are restored, regulators and other government agencies have backdoor to implement any law any way they see fit. This is setting a very bad precedent.

The government is not elite or wise enough to make every decision in every market nor are they smart enough to protect a consumer. They can't even pass a budget. I don't want those people in charge of everything I eat, my medicine, my health, my business, the air I breathe, etc. I'm not sure when the notion of the government being their brother's keeper begun but it's illogical and the more laws and regulations they push, the more powerful they get and the weaker you become.
 
Quote from Tsing Tao:

Hi, you must be new to the political forum. I'd like to politely point out that you are professing Ron Paul as a common sense candidate to the forum's self-admitted communist/socialist. He's been on record calling Paul's followers crazy, "cranks" and gold bugs. His favorite bloggers are Krugman and Yglesias.

I'm just pointing this out to you so you don't waste your breath on what will undoubtedly be someone laughing at you behind the scenes. The rest of us (with one or two minor exceptions), agree wholeheartedly.

Thanks Tsing. I appreciate the feedback. If crazy, crank or bug are puns for people who enjoy and value freedom over authority, I'll gladly wear the label.
 
Quote from EvOTraderV2:

Thanks Tsing. I appreciate the feedback. If crazy, crank or bug are puns for people who enjoy and value freedom over authority, I'll gladly wear the label.

Agree wholeheartedly.
 
Quote from futurecurrents:

Good comments. I just want to add a few things that were not talked about enough IMO.

First off....it is not the end of the US. The US is still the greatest nation on earth and will be for quite some. Reports of it's death are just hysterics and not rooted in reality. Some folks need to get a grip.

Citizen's United and the equating of dollars to votes. Oligarchy. There is too much power of money within the gov. Corporations are not people.

Rand Paul, like his father and Libertarianism in general sounds good at first, but deeper down the policies are impractical and the philosophy is savagery. We are better than "every man for himself". For instance, their idea of eliminating the EPA - a Republican president's idea- is simply stupid. But I love half of what they say. It's the other half that's the problem.

The top 1% control 40% of the wealth. For the sake of justice and economic vitality, this must change. And it would not even be so bad if money did not equal political power as it does now.

The 3 trillion dollar Iraq war....letting Wall St and the bankers run amok (leading to the 2008 collapse) and tax breaks for the wealthy.

A minimum wage that is not enough to live on.

Do you know why Libertarians advocate eliminating a federally funded EPA? Do you know what they believe will take the place of it? Of course you don't.

I'm sure you'll scramble on over and try to find that info before you come back.
 
Quote from EvOTraderV2:

The greatest nation on earth? That is your bias speaking. We have the most debt, the most wars, the biggest deficit, nowhere near the best education, nowhere near par in health care services. In most terms, we are lacking far behind other nations.

One more thing is that Paul is a constitutionalists. States have the right to regulate things like environmental protection. The anti-federalists like Paul advocate a moral local approach that would give the people more say. There is also a proprerty rights issue with pollution in that polluting someone else's property is like throwing garbage on it. The current system picks and chooses who is connected enough to pollute and who isn't. It should be locals who decide this - not a group of lawyers from DC.

It's not "every many for himself". Right now we have "man vs corporation" and we would all be better off in competitive environments rather than heavily-regulated top-down-controlled bureaucracies. It's a dumb idea to give a room of government employees full control over the environment because the odds of them abusing their authority are far higher than the odds they will do any good.

I understand wealth distribution differently, the 1% control the wealth because they are writing all the laws to protect themselves at the rest of the nation's expense. If we had a more organic system of government where states had to collaborate instead of the federal government using force, the markets would be more stable and individual voices would have more so.

I agree that Citizen's united is a scam and you'd need to work to get 2/3 state legislators to amend the constitution. The corrupt supreme court has sold out the country to foreign corporations. Think about it - there is no open disclosure for campaign funding. Any Chinese can open a US corporation, pump in billions and win the election without anyone knowing.

Unfortunately though, unless the individual's civil rights such as due process, right to trial by jury, etc are restored, regulators and other government agencies have backdoor to implement any law any way they see fit. This is setting a very bad precedent.

The government is not elite or wise enough to make every decision in every market nor are they smart enough to protect a consumer. They can't even pass a budget. I don't want those people in charge of everything I eat, my medicine, my health, my business, the air I breathe, etc. I'm not sure when the notion of the government being their brother's keeper begun but it's illogical and the more laws and regulations they push, the more powerful they get and the weaker you become.

BAM.
 
Quote from jem:

good thread..

how do we fix it?

I'm not sure it's fixable given the current state of affairs. The country is too fractured, too tribal. I'd like to hear one, just one solution that everyone can agree on. Not pointing out a problem, like we all agree congress is disfunctional, or 14 year olds giving birth to their 2nd kid, etc., etc. Of course we all agree on the obvious problems. A solution. Something where we say, and everyone can agree that this is the way to solve...
I just don't see it happening. Everyone is too much in love with their own ideas, and much too much worried about someone else getting the credit for a fix. That, and there's just too much history among the opposing parties. We're becoming like the ME. They're killing each other over some shit that happened centuries ago. America is no longer One Nation, unified in our core beliefs. Sounds good on a campaign stump, but it ain't reality. We have a guy who campaigned on just that. There is no Red America, no Blue America, just the United States of America. A stirring speech indeed. And then this same guy does everything in his power to draw a clear line between people, while he and his minions demagoge anyone with a question, let alone an opposing idea.
 
Quote from EvOTraderV2:

The greatest nation on earth? That is your bias speaking. We have the most debt, the most wars, the biggest deficit, nowhere near the best education, nowhere near par in health care services. In most terms, we are lacking far behind other nations.

One more thing is that Paul is a constitutionalists. States have the right to regulate things like environmental protection. The anti-federalists like Paul advocate a moral local approach that would give the people more say. There is also a proprerty rights issue with pollution in that polluting someone else's property is like throwing garbage on it. The current system picks and chooses who is connected enough to pollute and who isn't. It should be locals who decide this - not a group of lawyers from DC.

It's not "every many for himself". Right now we have "man vs corporation" and we would all be better off in competitive environments rather than heavily-regulated top-down-controlled bureaucracies. It's a dumb idea to give a room of government employees full control over the environment because the odds of them abusing their authority are far higher than the odds they will do any good.

I understand wealth distribution differently, the 1% control the wealth because they are writing all the laws to protect themselves at the rest of the nation's expense. If we had a more organic system of government where states had to collaborate instead of the federal government using force, the markets would be more stable and individual voices would have more so.

I agree that Citizen's united is a scam and you'd need to work to get 2/3 state legislators to amend the constitution. The corrupt supreme court has sold out the country to foreign corporations. Think about it - there is no open disclosure for campaign funding. Any Chinese can open a US corporation, pump in billions and win the election without anyone knowing.

Unfortunately though, unless the individual's civil rights such as due process, right to trial by jury, etc are restored, regulators and other government agencies have backdoor to implement any law any way they see fit. This is setting a very bad precedent.

The government is not elite or wise enough to make every decision in every market nor are they smart enough to protect a consumer. They can't even pass a budget. I don't want those people in charge of everything I eat, my medicine, my health, my business, the air I breathe, etc. I'm not sure when the notion of the government being their brother's keeper begun but it's illogical and the more laws and regulations they push, the more powerful they get and the weaker you become.


I basically agree but....some things need to be done at a federal level. The EPA is one of them. Pollution does not stop at state lines and there needs to be a coherent nationwide policy.

"I understand wealth distribution differently, the 1% control the wealth because they are writing all the laws to protect themselves at the rest of the nation's expense."

I totally agree with the above and your comments about CU.

Constitutionalists? Is that supposed to be good thing? The Constitution is old, out of date and has changed before. I don't adhere to the notion that blindly following words written long ago is de facto the right thing to do.

Whether the US is still the greatest is certainly up for debate and it depends on how one judges but it is far from from being broken and saying so is hyperbole.
 
Quote from EvOTraderV2:

Thanks Tsing. I appreciate the feedback. If crazy, crank or bug are puns for people who enjoy and value freedom over authority, I'll gladly wear the label.
Tsing forgot "kook", a good term for Paul used by another rightie here.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't believe in all freedom no authority. Some government is necessary, yes?
 
Quote from Ricter:

Tsing forgot "kook", a good term for Paul used by another rightie here.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't believe in all freedom no authority. Some government is necessary, yes?

State government, like most of us "kooks" believe in. Weren't you listening?
 
Quote from futurecurrents:



Constitutionalists? Is that supposed to be good thing? The Constitution is old, out of date and has changed before. I don't adhere to the notion that blindly following words written long ago is de facto the right thing to do.

There is a process to amend the constitution, as you well know. No one here disagrees with that process should the need arise. What we disagree with, is ignoring the Constitution and legislating over/around/through it without amending it.
 
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