whip saw action is severe-very tough

Quote from enforcer99:

its almost impossible to make money today,support and resistance just don't exist.

:( I gotta agree with you. These huge ranges are just way too much to handle by my standard strategies. I lost 7k this week which is by far one of my largest for the year. I'm back to break even this December so I'm pretty much way behind my target for the year. I love the volatility in August but not the ones we're seeing in November-December.

There just doesn't seem to be an intraday trend - as far as I can see.
 
Quote from bighog:

Breakout trading has absolute best risk/reward ratio of all. Nothing better in catching a run than BO trading.

That depends where price breaks out of ImO. If you refer to a certain congestion zone breakout buying Lo, then I agree, buying breakout near the Hi is a different matter and is probably worst r/r.
 
"I gotta agree with you. These huge ranges are just way too much to handle by my standard strategies. I lost 7k this week which is by far one of my largest for the year. I'm back to break even this December so I'm pretty much way behind my target for the year. I love the volatility in August but not the ones we're seeing in November-December.

There just doesn't seem to be an intraday trend - as far as I can see."

you are kidding me right?

the problem isn't trend or lack of trend. if you can't make money in these markets (given sufficient trade sample size), your methodology lacks edge.

this market is, at least for my methodology, a dream methodology.

here's one hint. volatility has increased.

decrease leverage and increase targets and stops.

that's the primary change to make when volatility increases.
 
the problem this market presents to traders is the fierce whipsaw action. we could be breaking below significant support and then bamm! the market rallies 100 points in 15 minutes only to reverse course and then head back up again. ITS not just about reversing trend and then acclimating,its about the whip saw in my opinion. my strategy works best when i grab the quick money between 9:30 and 10:30 and then walk away. if i hang aroung longer i over trade and just contantly get stopped out of positions and i wind up getting killed on commissions. AGAIN,THATS JUST ME but there are others that are doing just fine. that said,a true trader does'nt dwell on this action,he just trades and does'nt think about it;another day in the office. perhaps we are reading to much between the lines and scaring ourselves into losing?
 
this market is a waste of time to trade intraday, it's been like this for months now I wasted my time this week making a tiny trade in SPY to catch what I saw as almost a sure-thing bottom only to see the market plunge 20 S&P points lower . Eventually I averaged down much lower and made money, but the size was so small it was ridiculous.
 
Quote from JimyJam:

This is the link daxscalper is referring to:

What is Scalping?

The fact of the matter is, once you've mastered a method of consistently making money and learn how to model position sizing so that you can scale-up your trades in size with a descending relationship to the risk inherent in each trade, scalping is pretty much the holy grail of trading.

Every day it's just a matter of reaching your set limit (mine is certainly far, far lower than dax's achievements), and then come back the next day for some more action.

The key that we're talking about here, enforecer99 is that this method of making money is not dependent on range, or trend, or even market (so long as they print an OHLC, they are essentially all the same, the only difference is in scalability of contract size).

Do some work, it will payoff.

Good trading,

Jimmy Jam
But I thought you did not believe in the "Accordion"..LOL! BTW, great chart daxscalper..you got it! :)
 
Funny, I for one cant make a freakin cent when the market goes into a persistant trend but can scalp these choppy markets with my eyes closed. Sometimes I really wish I could find a partner who could trade the account on days the market trends and I could trade it when it chops.
 
Quote from cd23:

Every day is a winner. Check the change in price of anything with respect to open price compared to closing price.

Every night is a winner. Check the difference in price of close to open.

Bighog talls us about his bugaboo and how he compensates for not having a trading strategy for what happens when he is in the market after he finds out he caught a no run.

Here time passes and he discovers false breakouts, retraces to work and "pesty" whipsaws. Obviously he cuts these losers short each day and is on the sidelines with all his capital for a while. He limits how much he pulls off the sidelines in the first place to be sure he has preserved capital all through the trading day. Obviously he can't say every day is a winner even though he is using a method with the best risk/reward ratio of all (he suggests).

So bighog trades BO's. What is a BO of a false BO? A BO of a retrace? Or a BO of a bugaboo whipsaw?

Lets say there is no false BO or no retrace or no bugaboo whipsaw? How does big hog exit? This is not his special case of cutting a loser short. It is a case of letting a winner run. When does he exit? We do not know as yet.

If he lets a BO become a false BO, then it is a BO that is a loser. He takes a BO and it becomes a retrace after a while; enough retrace passes the time for a while. What does he do with a BO trade that is retracing? He does something.

He, at some point, changes tactics. He is no longer looking at the BO strategy. Generally at this tactics change time, bighog observes it is the time when "off she goes". He watches.

Bighog doesn't win every day.

If you want to take the cure from this modus of trading, you need to learn to "read" the markets. To be able to "read" the markets, you need to be able to "see" the markets by having a comprehensive display.

Where do you look to see whipsaw coming into the picture? Name three places.

Where do you look to see that a BO is coming? Name 9 places.

What tells you in advance that a failure to BO is coming? Look 5 places.

Where do contrarians look to take entries at the beginnings of retraces? Look 7 places.

All the places counted are showing on my screen. Also I trade all of these because it is part of being in the market all of the time.

The excel posted shows a scalper going in and out of the markets. He does scalps for one reason: to make money. If he isn't he exits and waits for the next opportunity. 1 or 2 cars makes 7,000 dollars a day this way. It it possible to have a losing day trading this way? I don't think so.

What would it be like to slow down the scalping and just reverse on each turn of the markets. It wouldn't be just be BO trading, but it would include BO's, failure to BO, retraces and bugaboo whipsaws. This would turn the bugaboo whipsaws into a series of profitable segments.

There is always someone on the other side of bighog's trades when he cuts losses short. Look at the excel and see how much time price moved when the scalper was sidelined. Debrief and look at how the losing trades could have been cut short.....or reversed to make some money. Debrief the excel by circling the BO trades and note how the exit on the BO trade was done. Lots of ways.

The last exercise gives you a good picture of just how poor doing BO trading as the only trade really is. It is okay to think that BO trading is the greatest. It isn't as has been shown several ways but it is okay to think it is for a while until you are able to move on...... LOL..
O Winded One, was there not supposed to be a video link of your always-in method being traded in real time for all to see? By December of 2007, i.e., now? Whatever became of that initiative? And to think I was so hopeful of finally seeing the light...
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

O Winded One, was there not supposed to be a video link of your always-in method being traded in real time for all to see? By December of 2007, i.e., now? Whatever became of that initiative? And to think I was so hopeful of finally seeing the light...

Ole windy may be more gas than gusto :p
 
" my strategy works best when i grab the quick money between 9:30 and 10:30 and then walk away. if i hang aroung longer i over trade and just contantly get stopped out of positions and i wind up getting killed on commissions"

i think thats your answer...for now just trade the first hour and turn off the computer...wait til this whipsaw action mellows out before trading full days...I know its very hard to walk away from the action but preservation is key.

"There just doesn't seem to be an intraday trend - as far as I can see"

there is a trend but your seeing it the opposite way and taking the wrong position...we all get screwed like this so you are not alone...i guess the key is just knowing when its a bad trade and when to exit...when i have a bad trade or day i reduce size from 1000 shares to 200-400 shares...Its just easier on the nerves,the loss potential is significantly reduced as is the anxiety..also dont overtrade.

What i am trying to do now for example in stocks is to wait for a big intraday selloffs(an unexplained sudden 30cent+ down move ) in one of my stocks and then just go long...These big intraday selloffs happen usually once a day sometimes more than once.Some days they dont happen but thats not too common.Sometimes we need to be more choosy,patient and selective and then go for the gusto when we see a "sure thing".Overtrading sometimes just results in giving back everything.
 
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