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When the Euro was weak, europeans blamed the USA, now that it is strong, the same...
- Thread starter crgarcia
- Start date
Billions from Americans? Well you should first pay your debts to the UN that your country has amassed (in contrast to any other industrialized nation) and you including the other millions of households should try to pay off your household debt that you live a comfortable live with but just on borrowed time. Foreigners such as the Chinese, Japanese, and many Europeans that you seemingly all look down to and treat as second-class citizens (apparent through your attitudes as the world's police man) are lending and financing your lavish and under normal circumstances unaffordable life styles. Maybe the time will come the rest of the world will be less willing to extend loands to you.
After you consider ALL that you can start telling us how you pay billions to Africa. But please dont tell us it is your sincere hearts and generosity that goes beyond description that supported countries financially throughout ANY time of history. Please dont "omit" it was political interests, oil interests and the like that opened your generous hearts to give.
I dont claim the US is the ONLY country that "invests" (=donates) funds out of selfish motivations but the US is world champion in masking those interests and marketing themselves as generous givers. I guess what got this discussion heated up is a) non-Americans who are sick of those marketing-shennanigans and pretentious generosity and b) totally mis-informed Americans who still believe the US helped-rebuild Germany, France, UK after WWII because they felt "connected" to those nations due to their immigrant base. Or maybe some of those posters still believe the world outside the US today would be in bondage and a miserable state of affairs without US aid. Wake up dudes!!! For example, China would do as well as it does today without a single investment by the US or US consumers buying cheap Chinese products. The rest of the world would happily fill the void.
Take it for what it really is: Capitalism at work, investments made, resturns reaped. Hope we can all agree on this and be truthful.
After you consider ALL that you can start telling us how you pay billions to Africa. But please dont tell us it is your sincere hearts and generosity that goes beyond description that supported countries financially throughout ANY time of history. Please dont "omit" it was political interests, oil interests and the like that opened your generous hearts to give.
I dont claim the US is the ONLY country that "invests" (=donates) funds out of selfish motivations but the US is world champion in masking those interests and marketing themselves as generous givers. I guess what got this discussion heated up is a) non-Americans who are sick of those marketing-shennanigans and pretentious generosity and b) totally mis-informed Americans who still believe the US helped-rebuild Germany, France, UK after WWII because they felt "connected" to those nations due to their immigrant base. Or maybe some of those posters still believe the world outside the US today would be in bondage and a miserable state of affairs without US aid. Wake up dudes!!! For example, China would do as well as it does today without a single investment by the US or US consumers buying cheap Chinese products. The rest of the world would happily fill the void.
Take it for what it really is: Capitalism at work, investments made, resturns reaped. Hope we can all agree on this and be truthful.
Quote from ssmegner:
Reaver, I agree. I get so tired of this trash talk from countries that get billions from us. Let them scream after we pull our billions (maybe trillions) away.
Quote from ssmegner:
Show me one country that refused the help. If we are as corrupt as you claim, the leaders in the reciving countries are just as corrupt for participating.
Are you talking to me in regards to my response?
a) Show me one country that refused the help.
-> Not sure why you ask that, it never appeared in my response and I never claimed that. So, not sure where you try to get with this.
b) If we are as corrupt as you claim, the leaders in the reciving countries are just as corrupt for participating.
-> Nicaragua, Afghanistan (80s), numerous African countries,....the list goes on. But also here I dont get your point. Nobody claimed the US is corrupt, I said the US is good at masking its true intentions. This is very different from being corrupt. Also, the claim that if a country is corrupt and giving the receivers would also be corrupt is not necessarily true and cannot be proven.
Not sure what you actually want to say at least not in a meaningful sense. Why dont you say what you really want to say. Then everybody gets to benefit from this discussions not just those who seem to be able to decypher suggestions, hints, twisted meanings.
Quote from IluvVol:
Are you talking to me in regards to my response?
a) Show me one country that refused the help.
-> Not sure why you ask that, it never appeared in my response and I never claimed that. So, not sure where you try to get with this.
b) If we are as corrupt as you claim, the leaders in the reciving countries are just as corrupt for participating.
-> Nicaragua, Afghanistan (80s), numerous African countries,....the list goes on. But also here I dont get your point. Nobody claimed the US is corrupt, I said the US is good at masking its true intentions. This is very different from being corrupt. Also, the claim that if a country is corrupt and giving the receivers would also be corrupt is not necessarily true and cannot be proven.
Not sure what you actually want to say at least not in a meaningful sense. Why dont you say what you really want to say. Then everybody gets to benefit from this discussions not just those who seem to be able to decypher suggestions, hints, twisted meanings.
Damn right.
America has come a long way from Wilsonian politics until now. Back then, it was supposed to be a model of democracy and righteousness. Today ...
Reminds me of Otto from A Fish Called Wanda.
Quote from Wilt:
Hey, to all of you Bush bashers-He is not your supreme being. He is not your commander. I assume that much of this "lying" and social standing detioration starts with the war in Iraq. You blame Bush. You claim he lied. Well stupids, he didn't. He made a decision based on intelligence that turned out to be incorrect. Intelligence corroborated with your Euro governments' assessments at the time. We (western intelligence) all believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Specific intelligence aside, Saddam's own behavior gave us reason to believe that he did. I saw the UN meeting where Colin Powell presented the audio recordings of Iraqi military members talking about moving WMD. I remember thinking to myself, "well the intelligence isn't that bad, maybe we should go to war over it." Personally, I'm not sure that I'd go to war over it, but it certainly was not without merit. It's up to our leaders to decide whether they think it's worth war.
You have elected officials. They made the decision to go to war based on the intelligence provided. If you say they went along to get along with Bush, your elected officials are idiots and thus (based on previous posts) so are you for electing them. The truth is that they made that grave decision based on the intelligence they heard which turned out be wrong. Have you ever been wrong? Ever been wrong about something major? Do your leaders gather intelligence personally so they know beyond a doubt it's accurate or do they trust their agencies and make decisions based on their findings? I'd go out on a limb and venture to say it's the latter.
There is also evidence that potential WMD were trucked into Syria during the months leading up to the invasion. Maybe all of our intelligence agencies weren't wrong and we just got there too late? Can't say for sure. What I can say is that if you think Bush unilaterally took this nation and all the allies to war because he "lied," you're an idiot. There is a system of checks and balances. The senate passed a majority vote to go to war. They all heard the intel presented at the UN. They didn't overwhelmingly agree to an invasion so that they would get smiles from Bush in the hallways. Their job is to make sure that big decisions don't occur based on one man's whims.
The buck stops with your governments if you entered a war based on lies. Your governments not doing their due diligence on something that important is condemnation enough. Your governments all have the same basic structure as ours. No one man did anything. They went in because they heard and believed the same intel. It turned out to be wrong. Man up, accept that you were wrong. Our intelligence agencies as a whole got it wrong. Don't reinvent history because memories have faded in order to absolve yourselves. Noone "lied" you into believing the recordings. Accept that being wrong about this has really bad consequences, but do not, do not panzy your responsibility onto one man. Bush did not do this by himself, Blair did not do this by himself, it DID NOT happen that way. Admit that, and you can start rebuilding your dignity as men.
And for those claiming Americans are arrogant-You're full of it. We don't spend our time thinking about how we can one-up you Euros. We handle our own lives and take care our own business. We work long and hard to get ahead. If you had reason to be jealous take a look at yourselves. France's former 35 hour work week limit doesn't help your competitiveness. You're not going to cover as much distance going 35 mph as 40+. Don't get mad for falling behind. If you're ok being "C" workers when we're "A" workers that's fine, but don't sneer at us for the shortcomings the lifestyle that you CHOSE has compared to ours. We don't whine about how great our lives would be with your work system. That law was there because Euros chose it despite the tradeoffs. Unfortunately, it looks like we're becoming more like you and you more like us and what a surprise, the penduluum is swinging and your economies are doing better.
Socially speaking, we aren't the ones persecuting homeschoolers in Germany. We aren't the ones setting up kids to be confused and miserable by teaching 8 year olds how to be faggots to get a "total view" of sexuality in England. It was the French who went into Algeria and massacred people to "integrate them". You are no better than us. You Euros are NOONE to be telling us how what we do is inferior. To even have that line of thinking shows your inferiority because you're worried about how what we're doing is either better or worse than you. Have some self-confidence and take responsibility for your own actions. You Euros have plenty of big problems that you're not answering for. I'd be willing to go into those if you want, but I'm a man, I don't feel validated for detailing the shortcomings of others, I get validated from doing what I'm supposed to do.
Wilt
Quote from IluvVol:
Wake up dudes!!! For example, China would do as well as it does today without a single investment by the US or US consumers buying cheap Chinese products. The rest of the world would happily fill the void.
Take it for what it really is: Capitalism at work, investments made, resturns reaped. Hope we can all agree on this and be truthful. [/B]
I love China's success but you do not know macroeconomics well if you think China's long term success can be maximized without the U.S. Well, most of the population including very educated people just like yourself do not truly understand it--
What we are seeing around the globe is a movement toward parity between global economies. Free trade allows once weak nations to be stronger if they accept free trade and capitalism. In this global economy there will always be stronger players and weaker players but their output would be "maximized" through increased national production that can only result from global trade.
Now, if China trades solely with Europe then it isnt maximizing its productive capacity. If China includes the US then China can increase its production from say, 1 to 3. This is basically what all nations, incl. the US will find. Each nation maximizes its production via cooperation with the other-a very basic game theory concept.
Another point--The heart of capitalism is in the heart of every individual in this world. All of us want to better ourselves. However, no country in the world has a better capitalistic foundation than the US. Capitalism is ingrained in us culturally but the strongest indication is that it is embedded in our legal infrastructure since the country's birth. The EU became b/c it imitated the US federal/state system. It works like a charm in the US but the EU will have its issues. So will China but you wont see this happening until the long run(LR)-say 10-30 years from now.
My last point: We are fooled in the short run (similar to being fooled by randomness) by the current global movement toward parity of the world ecoomies-all of what is happening has been explained in macroeconomic theory. It does seem the US is losing ground. However, it wont lose too much ground. China and the EU is gaining ground but it doesnt mean they will reach stellar heights. If you take a snapshot of the world then yes it does seem very negative for the US. Everyone gets fooled by short term patterns and we mistakenly believe this will carry on through the long term future.
In the long run you will see a strong US as well as a strong EU and a strong China. However, the US will probably be the most stable nation. It will always be rich in resources both human and natural. Our infrastructure will keep the engine in tune. The EU will have to continue to please its nations and China will still have to do away with its centralized infrastructure before it can sustain its dominance.
Caveat: This is a very macro, long term view of the global economy of at least 12-25 years.
Quote from Wilt:
Hey, to all of you Bush bashers-He is not your supreme being. He is not your commander. I assume that much of this "lying" and social standing detioration starts with the war in Iraq. You blame Bush. You claim he lied. Well stupids, he didn't. He made a decision based on intelligence that turned out to be incorrect. Intelligence corroborated with your Euro governments' assessments at the time. We (western intelligence) all believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Specific intelligence aside, Saddam's own behavior gave us reason to believe that he did. I saw the UN meeting where Colin Powell presented the audio recordings of Iraqi military members talking about moving WMD. I remember thinking to myself, "well the intelligence isn't that bad, maybe we should go to war over it." Personally, I'm not sure that I'd go to war over it, but it certainly was not without merit. It's up to our leaders to decide whether they think it's worth war.
You have elected officials. They made the decision to go to war based on the intelligence provided. If you say they went along to get along with Bush, your elected officials are idiots and thus (based on previous posts) so are you for electing them. The truth is that they made that grave decision based on the intelligence they heard which turned out be wrong. Have you ever been wrong? Ever been wrong about something major? Do your leaders gather intelligence personally so they know beyond a doubt it's accurate or do they trust their agencies and make decisions based on their findings? I'd go out on a limb and venture to say it's the latter.
There is also evidence that potential WMD were trucked into Syria during the months leading up to the invasion. Maybe all of our intelligence agencies weren't wrong and we just got there too late? Can't say for sure. What I can say is that if you think Bush unilaterally took this nation and all the allies to war because he "lied," you're an idiot. There is a system of checks and balances. The senate passed a majority vote to go to war. They all heard the intel presented at the UN. They didn't overwhelmingly agree to an invasion so that they would get smiles from Bush in the hallways. Their job is to make sure that big decisions don't occur based on one man's whims.
The buck stops with your governments if you entered a war based on lies. Your governments not doing their due diligence on something that important is condemnation enough. Your governments all have the same basic structure as ours. No one man did anything. They went in because they heard and believed the same intel. It turned out to be wrong. Man up, accept that you were wrong. Our intelligence agencies as a whole got it wrong. Don't reinvent history because memories have faded in order to absolve yourselves. Noone "lied" you into believing the recordings. Accept that being wrong about this has really bad consequences, but do not, do not panzy your responsibility onto one man. Bush did not do this by himself, Blair did not do this by himself, it DID NOT happen that way. Admit that, and you can start rebuilding your dignity as men.
And for those claiming Americans are arrogant-You're full of it. We don't spend our time thinking about how we can one-up you Euros. We handle our own lives and take care our own business. We work long and hard to get ahead. If you had reason to be jealous take a look at yourselves. France's former 35 hour work week limit doesn't help your competitiveness. You're not going to cover as much distance going 35 mph as 40+. Don't get mad for falling behind. If you're ok being "C" workers when we're "A" workers that's fine, but don't sneer at us for the shortcomings the lifestyle that you CHOSE has compared to ours. We don't whine about how great our lives would be with your work system. That law was there because Euros chose it despite the tradeoffs. Unfortunately, it looks like we're becoming more like you and you more like us and what a surprise, the penduluum is swinging and your economies are doing better.
Socially speaking, we aren't the ones persecuting homeschoolers in Germany. We aren't the ones setting up kids to be confused and miserable by teaching 8 year olds how to be faggots to get a "total view" of sexuality in England. It was the French who went into Algeria and massacred people to "integrate them". You are no better than us. You Euros are NOONE to be telling us how what we do is inferior. To even have that line of thinking shows your inferiority because you're worried about how what we're doing is either better or worse than you. Have some self-confidence and take responsibility for your own actions. You Euros have plenty of big problems that you're not answering for. I'd be willing to go into those if you want, but I'm a man, I don't feel validated for detailing the shortcomings of others, I get validated from doing what I'm supposed to do.
Wilt
One of the best posts I have read lately.