When does one start trading big

Quote from Neet:

How about 2 wrong and 1 right x a few ?

Sax, I don't mean any disrespect but sounds like you require more trading experience before making obvious flawless assumptions.

One more thing, when increasing your contract size, you are best doing it by scaling in. You will pay comission per contract, regardless of entry so why not just scale them in as the trade goes in your favor while tightening the stop.


I agree with you 100% about the trading experience part. I have not any. Your input is duly noted and appreciated. Thanx! :D :D
 
np saxon. mebbe i was a little harsh

but getting a harsh response in ET is better than looking at your PL and see you are down 10k for the day.
 
Quote from stock_trad3r:

You trade big wehn um..you have big money to trade with? I don;t see how else to answer that

How do you get TO big money when you do not have any?????
 
Quote from volente_00:

I agree but I disagree. It is far easier to up the contracts than to up the points. Say your goal is $1000 a day. With only 1 contract you are not going to make 20 points a day consistently. But with 10 contracts there is a far better chance that you could net 2 points daily consistently.


Precisely, the point I was trying to present. I owe you a round of whiskey! :D :D
 
Quote from jack hershey:

I can't address your second Q but here is an answer that covers the # of contracts trading topic from my personal orientation.

I began trading contracts by phone before there were minis.

I restrict myself to trading in NOW and letting my annotated future move into the present.

I use a pipeline analogy. Below, my comments apply to the ES e mini.

During trading hours I regard six trading levels in terms of the money velocity.

The Money velocity of the market determines your composite contract size (the number you are trading in one action). There is no upper limit at times under four digits. You can note the composite limits on the three charts I will attach that describe money velocity.

Four concurrent games are played on the DOM at any given time (except for 20 minutes before FOMC announcements) and these machinations always indicate the immediate propensity for tick movement and all of the time.

I use leading indicators of ES so I have a lot of time for taking action and the level of contracts that are viable is determined in parallel with the timing.

I use an "anti- whipsaw" strategy that ensures that when a mistake is made, then , later when the discovery of the mistake is at hand, I correct the mistake and continue with the same composite of contracts in all cases. There is a small profit made when the mistake is corrected and I return to "normal".

I train others. They follow a specific regime.

No one has the right to trade "money" at the beginning of trading. What gives at trader the right to trade money is his bottom line and only his bottom line and the compounding of capital.

Capital is not grown linearly as stated in this thread. (See Austin , et al.)

For mental reasons, a person starts with one contract, doubles it and removes his original capital represented by that contract.

Then , the person starts again and repeats his first doubling.

Moving up in knowledge, skills and experience is not a factor of profits. It is a factor of time passing.

Therefore, the person trades with capital at the initial market display view for a month. Then each month, another addition is made to the market display view. This goes on for 6 months to achieve seeing the total market for the first time.

Within that period, contracts are added with each doubling: 1, 2, 4 then 5. Capital at that time has moved an order of magnitude.

Then, the sequence becomes 5, 10, 20, 25. You can see that an other order of magnitude has been reached at this time.

A typical last Monday (yesterday), as observed by those present on a second display view, 7.75 points the first 2 hours and in the pm the total reached on about 6 trades was well over 20 points.

When the doubling on 25 is reached then the three charts begin to come into play as a direct function of the money velocity of the pipeline. During low market pace, less than the potential available number of contracts is used. I have ten divisions for the pace distribution based upon 5 minute bars over a month. The distribution varies by the month in various seasons and there is little variation within a season. I use EOD bars (250) to show the variation on five pace levels to demonstrate the seasonal variability.

Accounts are sweept weekly (Fridays) and this sets the weekly saw tooth of capital used for margin backing contracts. The IB requirement for margin is different than that used by anyone posting in this thread so far.


There are several barriers most people face in being able to become traders. Until these are surpassed, a person is not a trader and will not accumulate capital in the above mentioned exponential manner (See compound interest formula).

1. Predicting.

2. Not knowing the market.

3. Not being able to see the market.

4. Deploying edges and gaming theory to make money.

After a person has gopne through adding to the market display view six times and is fluent in the routine of trading (monitoring, analysis, decion making and timely action) they experience an effect that is similar to expert use of sports memory. there are very very few people on ET who trade using sports memory.

If you do not understand this post do not worry about it.

The OP posted a very very good set of questions and he is not going to get good answers as may be seen. He is making a very astute observation about thousands of posts he has read and, thus, he formulated what he did.

Recently (ending yesterday), I have given a run through on how I trade. It was 5 presentations a day for four days. Each presentation is two hours plus or minus about 20 to 30 illustrations each. It will take the attendees 6 months of daily work to get to the point of putting into practice what they were given.

I have to dig up the three charts from some power points. I will post them soon. My trading log (4 pages a day) is attached.


Jack, I am honored to have you post in this thread. Thank you for your informative post and your lengthy response. To tell you the truth, you are one of the very few individuals whose posts I have to read at least three times in order to fully comprehend. This remainds me of my graduate studies where I had to digest work written by those german philosophers. Because of that, to this day I harbor profound distaste for German grammar.
I must admit, there are parts of your post that are still one big enigma to me, but the excerpts that I was able to mentally dissect were both informative and very helpful. Thanks once again for your post and the time you had to devote to put your ideas on paper.
 
Quote from Spectre2007:

what your describing is the epitomy of trading. Once a trader has exposed himself to price action over many many hours and markets.

the realization is made when, risk approaches zero. There are points in time in the markets where risk does approach zero, and thats the difference between a trader starting out and someone who has been in the markets for awhile.

its similar to flight time for a pilot. Enough flight time needs to be logged so that the trader is exposed to most all situations.

even with this the odds are still against you, so the only time extreme size can be used is when risk approaches zero.

usually these times are during news events, and when price moves and barriers are broken quickly and retracements are minimal.


This is exactly what I was trying to convey, namely that if i can catch a market in a state of extreme break out. Getting that 1 point with huge amount of contract (100) should be less risky than hustling 10 contracts all day long trying to make the same amount as with that 1 point with 100 lots.
However, as you so succinctly stated, market has to be in that zero risk zone in order for it to work. :D :D :D
 
Quote from whitster:

np saxon. mebbe i was a little harsh

but getting a harsh response in ET is better than looking at your PL and see you are down 10k for the day.


You are 100% right. I'd rather be dragged through the mud than see my P/L in negative territory. I have tasted a 20K loss once in my life and it shook me up in more ways than one. (no it was not trading or gambling). :D :D :D
 
Quote from Spectre2007:

I had numerous 250K-500K loss days in the past. Its not a good feeling. But am still significantly ahead over the years.


All I can say is wow!!!!!!!!!!!! For me that would put me in a financial coma.
 
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