what's the common approach to develop an edge(if there is any)?

Quote from traderzhangSan:

I don't buy "screen time 5000 hours minimum".

many institutional traders don't ahve that mnay screen time, yet they are profitable.

For stock traders. 5000/6.5 ~ 3 years. That is too generous. I would say about 8000 hours minimum. For forex that may not even be enough, 10000+. For futures maybe the same.

"many institutional traders don't [ahve] that [mnay] screen time, yet they are profitable."

In 13 words, you have 2 spelling errors and one syntax error. In maybe about 20 years plus, you have not managed to learn how to spell properly English, yet you think it can take less than that to learn how to take other people's money. You are mistaken.
 
Quote from cokezero:

I've found that thinking is more effective than observing. When you look at a chart the human mind is wired to find patterns that are not actually there. Also, what works is what you can't see with your eyes but instead have to see with your mind. When I say thinking I mean making an assumption based on my believe of how the market works and test it to see if there is any validity. When I run out of ideas I read. I've found that reading, no matter how useless the materials are, is a good trigger for new ideas. I've built a library consists of totally useless trading books but I still flip thru them once in a while just to get some stimulation for my mind. I also visit websites like ET for stimulation.

Whenever I think of an idea I write it down on my notebook. I've been able to generate a lot of ideas because I'm constantly thinking about the market. Ideas could come anytime and I make sure I write them down everytime so that I won't miss any. When I don't have my notebook with me I type it up on my PDA and later copy it to my notebook. With an abundant backlog of ideas I was able to consistently test about 3 to 4 ideas a day 5 to 6 days a week for the last 5 years. That amounts to about 5000 different ideas. In the beginning I test just about anything I could think of no matter how outrageous it might be and the quality of the test is bad and most of the time spent is pure waste. Overtime I've developed a toolbox of valid assumptions about the market and is able to narrow down the direction of tests and the quality of the test goes up drammatically. The quality of the test follows an exponential curve with completely crappy results for a very long time in the beginning. The best ideas are always my latest ideas as my experince grow.

Experiencing failure thousands of times is no fun and is very discouraging. To drag my ass back to testing and experiencing yet another failure is no easy task. I've found that thinking thru the idea throughoughly and run "simulations" in my mind before the actualy test helps a great deal. For one it would eliminate many ideas not worth testing on second thought and also thru the process it helps to generate even more ideas. More importantly with the mind simulation I was able to convince myself that the idea is a good one and would give me hope and get myself excited enough to get back to the computer and work. Of course most ideas would again proved to be useless. Sometimes it gets to a point that when I think of a good idea I don't dare to test it. I want to hang on to this "good idea" for a couple days so that I can feel better with some hope. I'm afraid once I test the idea it would turn out to be not so good afterall (99% of the time) and so goes the hope with it. Over time I've learned to just treat it as a job and test 3-4 ideas a day like a robot. I no longer hope or get excited or anything. I just test like a robot and goes next next next. It sped up my testing because the hope-excited-defeated cycle is a drag both emotionally and time wise. When I see valid results it goes to my toolbox for further development.

I think the process to develop an edge more or less follows this path. I might be just dumb and I think it could be possible to find something that is useful with maybe a few hundred ideas and do it in maybe a year or two. I would recommend against automatic pattern search and the like. The market is all about the assumptions you make and how close your assumptions are to reality. ATS wouldn't help you bulid a valid assumption and is probably counter productive in that regard. I think there is no substitute for manual research and most importantly lots and lots of thinking and seeing things with your mind.

Good luck!

Lots of good stuff here. Nice post. This has been my process for the last 10 years or so. 1000's of ideas, maybe 10-20 good ones that are working well.

I think the best thing to take away from this discussion is two-fold:

(1) Generate a lot of ideas.

(2) Don't get married to / attached to any one idea.

Mike
 
Quote from cokezero:

I've found that thinking is more effective than observing. When you look at a chart the human mind is wired to find patterns that are not actually there. Also, what works is what you can't see with your eyes but instead have to see with your mind. When I say thinking I mean making an assumption based on my believe of how the market works and test it to see if there is any validity. When I run out of ideas I read. I've found that reading, no matter how useless the materials are, is a good trigger for new ideas. I've built a library consists of totally useless trading books but I still flip thru them once in a while just to get some stimulation for my mind. I also visit websites like ET for stimulation.

Whenever I think of an idea I write it down on my notebook. I've been able to generate a lot of ideas because I'm constantly thinking about the market. Ideas could come anytime and I make sure I write them down everytime so that I won't miss any. When I don't have my notebook with me I type it up on my PDA and later copy it to my notebook. With an abundant backlog of ideas I was able to consistently test about 3 to 4 ideas a day 5 to 6 days a week for the last 5 years. That amounts to about 5000 different ideas. In the beginning I test just about anything I could think of no matter how outrageous it might be and the quality of the test is bad and most of the time spent is pure waste. Overtime I've developed a toolbox of valid assumptions about the market and is able to narrow down the direction of tests and the quality of the test goes up drammatically. The quality of the test follows an exponential curve with completely crappy results for a very long time in the beginning. The best ideas are always my latest ideas as my experince grow.

Experiencing failure thousands of times is no fun and is very discouraging. To drag my ass back to testing and experiencing yet another failure is no easy task. I've found that thinking thru the idea throughoughly and run "simulations" in my mind before the actualy test helps a great deal. For one it would eliminate many ideas not worth testing on second thought and also thru the process it helps to generate even more ideas. More importantly with the mind simulation I was able to convince myself that the idea is a good one and would give me hope and get myself excited enough to get back to the computer and work. Of course most ideas would again proved to be useless. Sometimes it gets to a point that when I think of a good idea I don't dare to test it. I want to hang on to this "good idea" for a couple days so that I can feel better with some hope. I'm afraid once I test the idea it would turn out to be not so good afterall (99% of the time) and so goes the hope with it. Over time I've learned to just treat it as a job and test 3-4 ideas a day like a robot. I no longer hope or get excited or anything. I just test like a robot and goes next next next. It sped up my testing because the hope-excited-defeated cycle is a drag both emotionally and time wise. When I see valid results it goes to my toolbox for further development.

I think the process to develop an edge more or less follows this path. I might be just dumb and I think it could be possible to find something that is useful with maybe a few hundred ideas and do it in maybe a year or two. I would recommend against automatic pattern search and the like. The market is all about the assumptions you make and how close your assumptions are to reality. ATS wouldn't help you bulid a valid assumption and is probably counter productive in that regard. I think there is no substitute for manual research and most importantly lots and lots of thinking and seeing things with your mind.

Good luck!

Great post. I pretty much agree with this. I think after 5000 hours you'll be lucky to be consistently profitable. I agree that 8000 to 10000 is more likely. I know new guys don't want to hear this, and I didn't either when I was new, but you need to be committed to putting this time in if you want to be successful. If you somehow make it there early, great. It will take you thousands of hours to even figure out what you are looking for. Some never do.

Eventually (for some) things start to click and you make a few discoveries that REALLY work. If you are lucky you will figure out how to spend your research hours productively and start generating a profitable system every 20 to 2000 hours (yeah, that wide of a range).

Sometimes you even end up with, as they call it in the art world, a "happy accident". My best system I stumbled across because I was testing out a completely different idea, but there was a bug in my code that made it work differently than I was trying to code it to work. Of course I found the bug and fixed it, then my profit went away! So I built a system around the bug.
 
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