What´s wrong with WTS?
- Thread starter ronin266
- Start date
You can't commit libel against a screen name. Now if I choose to post your real name and then post lies about you that would be a different story.
Oh, common, no one is saying nothing concrete about anything, everything are just mere conjectures. I don´t see what are the problems here. But as ppl say, there is no smoke without fire somewhere 
.
SgtSlottter, thanks for the info. I have read some of these "rumors", and some might have a logical explanation (however some might not):
"2) According to their past statements combined with filings on the SEC site, if you do a little math, their traders make almost no money, which questions their longevity and training, support, etc."
This could be explained easily. If you have no profit, where do you plan to pay your taxes from?
") They merged with Dimension, which had a terrible rep of exploiting newbies who didn't do due diligence and signed up, had a subgroup in queens who disappeared to China with 2 million dollars (some was dimension traders, others were randoms from their community). Also, dimension on numerous occasions was accused of front running their prop traders. I believe they were even sued in arbitration over this (not sure on the lawsuit)."
The front-running issue is more suspicious. This can be possible with your own software (Blackwood?), if the system itself is build like a big internalizator as the majority of Forex bucket shop software.
"Fusion, the software WTS bought in the dimension deal, is consistently one of the least reliable software platform's in the industry, probably because it is just a renamed Blackwood Pro, which was built in 1999 or 2000. "
Tried it back in 2008, it´s not so awful, some things where awful, some nice and even sterling doesn´t have them. It´s just that it was made for other purposes I think, however , i do not trust software that has full "demo" capabilities (including quotes, etc). For the same reason that the previous comment.
5) they subscribe big time to the sub-group model, which leads to questions you should get answered about someone else or a different group blowing up and how it effects you.
I traded with other prop firms, and WTS is not the only one out there using this model. HB for example.
7) you mentioned 'internalization' - there is a lot of speculation they just cross their internal orders. This is not good, since there is a delay. when stocks are moving, the last thing you want are fancy routes, you just want to be able to get the stock on the box.
I think their dark routes deal a lot with this, crossing their own traders orders. I would like to see WTS rule 606 reports about their order routing.
8) one other rumor is that they spread any strategy from their US traders if they land a decent fish to traders in their much bigger overseas arm. the risk is you walk out of there without the edge you walked in with.
This risk is the same in every prop firm. I bet you that Bright,echo,chimera, etc have this thing happening. It´s called "team work" lol.
9) no one has ever answered the question about their Class A member capital versus Class B capital. Meaning, if a trader blows up, do the owners have any cushion in there before your money gets blown up proportionally. This would be a question to ask in writing to WTS or any other firm.
Would like to hear about this too.
.SgtSlottter, thanks for the info. I have read some of these "rumors", and some might have a logical explanation (however some might not):
"2) According to their past statements combined with filings on the SEC site, if you do a little math, their traders make almost no money, which questions their longevity and training, support, etc."
This could be explained easily. If you have no profit, where do you plan to pay your taxes from?
") They merged with Dimension, which had a terrible rep of exploiting newbies who didn't do due diligence and signed up, had a subgroup in queens who disappeared to China with 2 million dollars (some was dimension traders, others were randoms from their community). Also, dimension on numerous occasions was accused of front running their prop traders. I believe they were even sued in arbitration over this (not sure on the lawsuit)."
The front-running issue is more suspicious. This can be possible with your own software (Blackwood?), if the system itself is build like a big internalizator as the majority of Forex bucket shop software.
"Fusion, the software WTS bought in the dimension deal, is consistently one of the least reliable software platform's in the industry, probably because it is just a renamed Blackwood Pro, which was built in 1999 or 2000. "
Tried it back in 2008, it´s not so awful, some things where awful, some nice and even sterling doesn´t have them. It´s just that it was made for other purposes I think, however , i do not trust software that has full "demo" capabilities (including quotes, etc). For the same reason that the previous comment.
5) they subscribe big time to the sub-group model, which leads to questions you should get answered about someone else or a different group blowing up and how it effects you.
I traded with other prop firms, and WTS is not the only one out there using this model. HB for example.
7) you mentioned 'internalization' - there is a lot of speculation they just cross their internal orders. This is not good, since there is a delay. when stocks are moving, the last thing you want are fancy routes, you just want to be able to get the stock on the box.
I think their dark routes deal a lot with this, crossing their own traders orders. I would like to see WTS rule 606 reports about their order routing.
8) one other rumor is that they spread any strategy from their US traders if they land a decent fish to traders in their much bigger overseas arm. the risk is you walk out of there without the edge you walked in with.
This risk is the same in every prop firm. I bet you that Bright,echo,chimera, etc have this thing happening. It´s called "team work" lol.
9) no one has ever answered the question about their Class A member capital versus Class B capital. Meaning, if a trader blows up, do the owners have any cushion in there before your money gets blown up proportionally. This would be a question to ask in writing to WTS or any other firm.
Would like to hear about this too.
On 5, Hold Brothers branch's at least admit they are affiliated with Hold Brothers and are listed on HB website. All the WTS branches don't even admit they're WTS, so you have even less idea of who you are dealing with. Website's says 'Traders trade through a CBOE Stock Exchange (CBSX) member and SEC registered broker-dealer' but don't say which one. And at least one of them is run from a guy's apartment.
On 8, the companies you mention are US only companies without overseas affiliated operations. WTS US is an afterthought compared to their overseas stuff, which is why I think the risk is high. Certainly you have to go with reputation as well. Bright is open about their collaboration policy if you want to participate, even though they are primarily remote and claims to respect your privacy if that's the way you want it, Echo and Chimera have trading floors built for teamwork / collaboration, but you don't have to worry about them shipping your ideas overseas. And those companies, plus a bunch of others have been around for years, have bigger money on their balance sheets, and don't have these type of question marks surrounding them. AND, those companies aren't one trick ponies with the rebate trading pitch. The concern would be when WTS gets a successful non-rebate guy, their 'risk management' in Montreal is may be getting that strategy spread across the world.
To keep it fair, I will throw in another bone for WTS here - they do have a legit clearing firm...
But one other thing I forgot earlier regarding someone complaining about WTS feeing you with a bunch of BS charges. Certainly everyone gets hit with SEC fees. But Evo claims all the fees are worse in his 'Goldman' account.
My question for Evo is this - doesn't WTS charge $25 per month per outside brokerage account? So with Lloyd Blankfein as your 'other' broker, is WTS charging you for that too? And - of course - Vice versa? Does GS charge you for having a WTS account?
That and their 'compliance monthly charge', their $1500 start up charge, these things ARE invented by WTS.
And, of course, I'm still wanting to know Evo's earlier statement about having a WTS account and a Goldman Sachs account?
Where are you on this Evo? I'm still dying to know what the explanation is for you being involved with GS and WTS. What do you keep 5 million in GS and $1200 bucks in WTS?
On 8, the companies you mention are US only companies without overseas affiliated operations. WTS US is an afterthought compared to their overseas stuff, which is why I think the risk is high. Certainly you have to go with reputation as well. Bright is open about their collaboration policy if you want to participate, even though they are primarily remote and claims to respect your privacy if that's the way you want it, Echo and Chimera have trading floors built for teamwork / collaboration, but you don't have to worry about them shipping your ideas overseas. And those companies, plus a bunch of others have been around for years, have bigger money on their balance sheets, and don't have these type of question marks surrounding them. AND, those companies aren't one trick ponies with the rebate trading pitch. The concern would be when WTS gets a successful non-rebate guy, their 'risk management' in Montreal is may be getting that strategy spread across the world.
To keep it fair, I will throw in another bone for WTS here - they do have a legit clearing firm...
But one other thing I forgot earlier regarding someone complaining about WTS feeing you with a bunch of BS charges. Certainly everyone gets hit with SEC fees. But Evo claims all the fees are worse in his 'Goldman' account.
My question for Evo is this - doesn't WTS charge $25 per month per outside brokerage account? So with Lloyd Blankfein as your 'other' broker, is WTS charging you for that too? And - of course - Vice versa? Does GS charge you for having a WTS account?
That and their 'compliance monthly charge', their $1500 start up charge, these things ARE invented by WTS.
And, of course, I'm still wanting to know Evo's earlier statement about having a WTS account and a Goldman Sachs account?
Where are you on this Evo? I'm still dying to know what the explanation is for you being involved with GS and WTS. What do you keep 5 million in GS and $1200 bucks in WTS?
Quote from ronin266:
Oh, common, no one is saying nothing concrete about anything, everything are just mere conjectures. I don´t see what are the problems here. But as ppl say, there is no smoke without fire somewhere
SgtSlottter, thanks for the info. I have read some of these "rumors", and some might have a logical explanation (however some might not):
"2) According to their past statements combined with filings on the SEC site, if you do a little math, their traders make almost no money, which questions their longevity and training, support, etc."
This could be explained easily. If you have no profit, where do you plan to pay your taxes from?
") They merged with Dimension, which had a terrible rep of exploiting newbies who didn't do due diligence and signed up, had a subgroup in queens who disappeared to China with 2 million dollars (some was dimension traders, others were randoms from their community). Also, dimension on numerous occasions was accused of front running their prop traders. I believe they were even sued in arbitration over this (not sure on the lawsuit)."
The front-running issue is more suspicious. This can be possible with your own software (Blackwood?), if the system itself is build like a big internalizator as the majority of Forex bucket shop software.
"Fusion, the software WTS bought in the dimension deal, is consistently one of the least reliable software platform's in the industry, probably because it is just a renamed Blackwood Pro, which was built in 1999 or 2000. "
Tried it back in 2008, it´s not so awful, some things where awful, some nice and even sterling doesn´t have them. It´s just that it was made for other purposes I think, however , i do not trust software that has full "demo" capabilities (including quotes, etc). For the same reason that the previous comment.
5) they subscribe big time to the sub-group model, which leads to questions you should get answered about someone else or a different group blowing up and how it effects you.
I traded with other prop firms, and WTS is not the only one out there using this model. HB for example.
7) you mentioned 'internalization' - there is a lot of speculation they just cross their internal orders. This is not good, since there is a delay. when stocks are moving, the last thing you want are fancy routes, you just want to be able to get the stock on the box.
I think their dark routes deal a lot with this, crossing their own traders orders. I would like to see WTS rule 606 reports about their order routing.
8) one other rumor is that they spread any strategy from their US traders if they land a decent fish to traders in their much bigger overseas arm. the risk is you walk out of there without the edge you walked in with.
This risk is the same in every prop firm. I bet you that Bright,echo,chimera, etc have this thing happening. It´s called "team work" lol.
9) no one has ever answered the question about their Class A member capital versus Class B capital. Meaning, if a trader blows up, do the owners have any cushion in there before your money gets blown up proportionally. This would be a question to ask in writing to WTS or any other firm.
Would like to hear about this too.
Well , rebate trading is not a one trick pony, there are a lot of "sub-styles", it's just a complete different trading world that stuff. So you're being a little rude saying that (specially when there are ppl, who make a good living trading that way).
Anyway, going back to the point of this discussion,
I was checking Echo's site a couple of hours ago, and reading their risk disclosure,I've found that they just plainly say, that your money is subject to to risk due the activity of other traders, so I think this is something general (with deposit-based props).
I don't find strange that someone have a GS account apart of other one. I mean, if you scalp and at the same time do some swing or intraday position, is hard to have an all-in-one fee structure with one broker/platform (GS uses Redi if i'm not wrong).
Evo, could you please post a screenshot of your GS fees?(obviously taking out all the private data and other sensible info).
Sgt could you PM me your mail please, I would like to ask some things that may be sensible if asking publicly.
Anyway, going back to the point of this discussion,
I was checking Echo's site a couple of hours ago, and reading their risk disclosure,I've found that they just plainly say, that your money is subject to to risk due the activity of other traders, so I think this is something general (with deposit-based props).
I don't find strange that someone have a GS account apart of other one. I mean, if you scalp and at the same time do some swing or intraday position, is hard to have an all-in-one fee structure with one broker/platform (GS uses Redi if i'm not wrong).
Evo, could you please post a screenshot of your GS fees?(obviously taking out all the private data and other sensible info).
Sgt could you PM me your mail please, I would like to ask some things that may be sensible if asking publicly.
What is GS's relationship with Pico? I've heard one side of the story, I'm curious about the other.
I agree people have diff't strategies and maybe should have different accounts at different brokers but WTS is an anthill of a company compared to GS in capital and what their capabilities are (foreign equities, bonds, FX, options, metals and grains, etc), cap intro managed accounts, etc. Not to say WTS isn't a better fit for a lot since WTS requires for experienced traders the least in the industry - partially because they - i shouldn't have generalized - mostly rebate trade - and Goldman Sachs has a 5 million dollar requirement.
I just find it hard to believe Evo trader or anyone else has 5 million in one account and then goes to the bottom of the heap and sets up a 1500 dollar down rebate trading account at WTS and scalps in another, through WTS none the less.
I didn't mean to be rude by the way, I really haven't met any and I've been doing this for a while. I know some guys made a few bucks back in the days we were making a killing on the internet and biotech stocks, but not even in the ballpark.
i know there was a resurgence with AIG and Citi, but what now? What is the max upside - best month of the year let's say - the best rebate trader in a firm could make right now. And what percent of a firm makes over $10,000 a month in this admittedly difficult trading environment? Thanks for the info.
I just find it hard to believe Evo trader or anyone else has 5 million in one account and then goes to the bottom of the heap and sets up a 1500 dollar down rebate trading account at WTS and scalps in another, through WTS none the less.
I didn't mean to be rude by the way, I really haven't met any and I've been doing this for a while. I know some guys made a few bucks back in the days we were making a killing on the internet and biotech stocks, but not even in the ballpark.
i know there was a resurgence with AIG and Citi, but what now? What is the max upside - best month of the year let's say - the best rebate trader in a firm could make right now. And what percent of a firm makes over $10,000 a month in this admittedly difficult trading environment? Thanks for the info.
There are people who make it.
Know a guy trading only a couple of rebate stocks and is making 15-20k in a good month on average, record day 12k. So I don't think that overall WTS don't make some nice money if they have a couple dozen of traders like that.
Like I said before, it looks like their main business is in a gray area where not so many people like to share their gains lol. But a lot of firms are doing this, so thats not a big concern. Now the tech things are what have me worrying. Cause if they business has something in common with the forex bucket shop thing, I would be wary about them.
Know a guy trading only a couple of rebate stocks and is making 15-20k in a good month on average, record day 12k. So I don't think that overall WTS don't make some nice money if they have a couple dozen of traders like that.
Like I said before, it looks like their main business is in a gray area where not so many people like to share their gains lol. But a lot of firms are doing this, so thats not a big concern. Now the tech things are what have me worrying. Cause if they business has something in common with the forex bucket shop thing, I would be wary about them.
Yes, that's correct. A trader's capital contribution becomes "firm capital" which the firm can include in maintaining their net capital requirements.
Echo listed over 20 million in member's equity according to their latest annual public filings with SEC. Even the CBSX firms that aren't as well capitalized file monthly reports to their SRO. Those risk disclosures are standard for the registered firms where you make a capital contribution. So it's not really a concern. However, if you start to notice in the SEC filings that the firm borrows money at ridiculous interest rates to meet their net capital requirements (which has happened to at least one CBSX), then you know they're in trouble.
that is why most traders will keep a minimal amount of capital in their account just in case anything goes wrong
You get a bad situation of a trader blowing up , the firm is not going to eat the losses in most cases , all traders monies are exposed with most prop firms
it does not matter what firm , sometimes things happen beyond anyone's control & you have to protect your own money by using common sense
You get a bad situation of a trader blowing up , the firm is not going to eat the losses in most cases , all traders monies are exposed with most prop firms
it does not matter what firm , sometimes things happen beyond anyone's control & you have to protect your own money by using common sense