What would happen if a market maker sells more shares than exist and fails to deliver ?

Stock XYZ - 1 million authorized stocks. But accidentally market maker naked short sell 10 millions stocks. It is impossible to cover this position

1) Will the people who bought the shares lose them ?

2) Or, phantom shares continue to be traded ?
 
Stock XYZ - 1 million authorized stocks. But accidentally market maker naked short sell 10 millions stocks. It is impossible to cover this position

1) Will the people who bought the shares lose them ?

2) Or, phantom shares continue to be traded ?
If you're playing a "name a super improbable event game" then sure, there's a minute but nonzero chance that happens. There's also a chance that a solar flare destroys a good chunk of the electronics on earth or a meteor kills half of life on earth. However there is an orders and orders of magnitude higher chance that you lose your $2,000 by making poor trading decisions because instead of learning how markets worked you wasted your time speculating on highly improbable events.
 
I've been lurking for a while but I joined just to comment on this one.
I'm shocked at the near religious level of faith in the system that is being displayed here.

It's like saying, "A broker would never take money out of their customer accounts, they'd all go to jail!" Corzine anyone?

This is an older article, but it seems some of the issues raised still seem relevant:
https://www.euromoney.com/article/b...rious-incident-of-the-shares-that-didnt-exist

Given the way the system is set up, where brokers and DTCC can be on the hook for failures to deliver, this IMO creates a financial incentive not to notice fraud. In a way I suppose it's similar to the ratings agencies and their conduct leading to the real estate crash.

There also seem to be two other relevant issues that I have uncovered in my reading on this:
1) When a failure happens and the shares are "borrowed" from another broker it seems that those shares are double booked. It is assumed that the delivery eventually happens and that ends the double entry, but in the meantime there are two parties that think they own the same share.
2) The management of DTCC, seems to have a conflict of interest. Look at the Gamestop scenario: Melvin makes a bet they seemingly can't cover. Citadel allows this and then steps in and takes a financial position to support them. A C-level executive of Citadel is on the board of DTCC. Suddenly DTCC starts making it harder for certain retail brokers to trade the stock by demanding more collateral. Now maybe everything that happened was above board, but an organization like this should be set up to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. DTCC has declined to state how much it required from specific firms, which given all the irregularities involved with Gamestop trading is something I find suspicious. It's like have a district attorney possibly making decisions about a case involving his brother.

One thing I find interesting about the Gamestop situation is how remarkably un-curious the media is. You'll find articles talking about how DTCC stopped "Gamestop Mania," but there marked lack of numbers and hard facts on what DTCC did. Given that all of this is highly relevant to the IPO of Robinhood, you would think there would be lots of in depth analysis.
As a non-professional, a variety of obvious questions come to mind:
-Where other firms held to the same capital standard? Citadel and related parties in partcular?
-When was the last that time that level of collateral was required for trading a stock? Under what conditions?
-If Robinhood and retail brokers were treated differently WRT to the trading power of their capital, wouldn't this constitute rigging the market by allowing certain parties to obtain more poker chips than others with the same buy-in?
-Was Robinhood in particular subjected to higher capital demands than any other retail broker?
-What specifically did Thomas Peterffy mean when he said "We have come dangerously close to the collapse of the entire system" How could a small company with a market cap of less than 20B lead to a crash of the whole system? Ridiculous leverage? Fraud?

One last thought on all this:
It seems like buying stocks that pay a regular and substantial dividend is the best insurance against counterfeiting of shares.
I would think that the payment of a significant amount of dividends would make it un-viable financially for any party to invent extra shares. If I'm the CEO of FOO which has issued 20,000 shares and I've declared at $2 divided, I'm forking over $40,000 and that's it. If I get requests for more than that, I start demanding to see share certificates.
As I understand it, this would also apply to naked short selling. The short seller is on the hook to pay the dividend for the shares the are short, so if someone has sold short a million shares of FOO, they're out $2 million.

Other opinions are, of course, welcome. The reason I went through the trouble to write this, is I'm interested to see what holes someone else can poke in my logic.
 
Syammondsandrew, that response is a tautology.

It's like saying "ninjas have swords because they're ninjas" in response to someone asking about the possibility of a ninja having a gun. It doesn't do anything to address the point that there would be obvious advantages for a ninja who gets a gun.

Now one could play games with taxonomy and say "No one with a gun is a ninja." But it's a pointless argument. The important thing is "Are people going to get shot?"

It's not really important to answer "Some assassins in black robes just shot someone while acting in all other ways like ninjas. Should we call them ninjas?"
The guy who got shot doesn't care. It's missing the point.

In this circumstance, the original question was a hypothetical "What would happen if a market maker sells more shares than exist and fails to deliver?"
To simply say that it wouldn't happen, is pointless. WHY wouldn't it happen? Would they immediately get arrested? Would a bomb strapped to the bottom of toilet blow up?
Would someone give them a wet willy? Banana in the tail pipe?

When evaluating the possibility that someone might do something that they're not supposed to, it's useful to ask:
"What is the mechanism that would cause the nefarious behaviour to be discovered."
and
"What would happen once it is discovered?"

Here's some more direct, on-topic info:

"That point is made abundantly clear by tapes obtained by Rolling Stone of recent meetings held by the compliance officers for big Prime Brokers like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank. Compliance officers are supposed to make sure that traders at their firms follow the rules — but in the tapes, they talk about how they routinely greenlight transactions they know are dicey."
https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/wall-streets-naked-swindle-194908/

"The attack spiked on September 9th, when there were over 1 million undelivered shares in Lehman. On September 10th, there were 5,877,649 failed trades. The day after, there were an astonishing 22,625,385 fails. The next day: 32,877,794. Then, on September 15th, the price of Lehman Brothers stock fell to 21 cents, and the company declared bankruptcy."

Personally I had never heard that there were 32 million fails on Lehman stock. It would certainly be interesting to know who was failing to deliver. With a transaction of that size, I don't think you can rule out a "market maker" without information to the contrary. I would think some random "non-connected"/market maker firm would have been blocked from trading prior to racking up that many fails. Think of the losses their broker could have been on the hook for if the stock had recovered.
Given that the source of those failures hasn't been identified, let alone been given a wet willy or banana in the tailpipe as a punishment, I don't see why it can't happen again.


One other interesting tidbit from this article:
"If you own stock that pays a dividend, you can even look at your dividend check to see if your shares are real. If you see a line that says “PIL” — meaning “Payment in Lieu” of dividends — your shares were never actually delivered to you when you bought the stock. The mere fact that you’re even getting this money is evidence of the crime: This counterfeiting scheme is so profitable for the hedge funds, banks and brokers involved that they are willing to pay “dividends” for shares that do not exist. “They’re making the payments without complaint,” says SusanneTrimbath, an economist who worked at the Depository Trust Company. “So they’re making the money somewhere else.”"

So it looks like my idea that dividend paying companies offer some protection must be taken with a grain of salt. It seems there is a mechanism to pay dividends to shareholders of counterfeit stock. I still think payment of a regular and significant dividend would be strong disincentive to counterfeiting, but I wanted to point that section out.
 
Syammondsandrew, that response is a tautology.

It's like saying "ninjas have swords because they're ninjas" in response to someone asking about the possibility of a ninja having a gun. It doesn't do anything to address the point that there would be obvious advantages for a ninja who gets a gun.

Now one could play games with taxonomy and say "No one with a gun is a ninja." But it's a pointless argument. The important thing is "Are people going to get shot?"

It's not really important to answer "Some assassins in black robes just shot someone while acting in all other ways like ninjas. Should we call them ninjas?"
The guy who got shot doesn't care. It's missing the point.

In this circumstance, the original question was a hypothetical "What would happen if a market maker sells more shares than exist and fails to deliver?"
To simply say that it wouldn't happen, is pointless. WHY wouldn't it happen? Would they immediately get arrested? Would a bomb strapped to the bottom of toilet blow up?
Would someone give them a wet willy? Banana in the tail pipe?

When evaluating the possibility that someone might do something that they're not supposed to, it's useful to ask:
"What is the mechanism that would cause the nefarious behaviour to be discovered."
and
"What would happen once it is discovered?"

Here's some more direct, on-topic info:

"That point is made abundantly clear by tapes obtained by Rolling Stone of recent meetings held by the compliance officers for big Prime Brokers like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank. Compliance officers are supposed to make sure that traders at their firms follow the rules — but in the tapes, they talk about how they routinely greenlight transactions they know are dicey."
https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/wall-streets-naked-swindle-194908/

"The attack spiked on September 9th, when there were over 1 million undelivered shares in Lehman. On September 10th, there were 5,877,649 failed trades. The day after, there were an astonishing 22,625,385 fails. The next day: 32,877,794. Then, on September 15th, the price of Lehman Brothers stock fell to 21 cents, and the company declared bankruptcy."

Personally I had never heard that there were 32 million fails on Lehman stock. It would certainly be interesting to know who was failing to deliver. With a transaction of that size, I don't think you can rule out a "market maker" without information to the contrary. I would think some random "non-connected"/market maker firm would have been blocked from trading prior to racking up that many fails. Think of the losses their broker could have been on the hook for if the stock had recovered.
Given that the source of those failures hasn't been identified, let alone been given a wet willy or banana in the tailpipe as a punishment, I don't see why it can't happen again.


One other interesting tidbit from this article:
"If you own stock that pays a dividend, you can even look at your dividend check to see if your shares are real. If you see a line that says “PIL” — meaning “Payment in Lieu” of dividends — your shares were never actually delivered to you when you bought the stock. The mere fact that you’re even getting this money is evidence of the crime: This counterfeiting scheme is so profitable for the hedge funds, banks and brokers involved that they are willing to pay “dividends” for shares that do not exist. “They’re making the payments without complaint,” says SusanneTrimbath, an economist who worked at the Depository Trust Company. “So they’re making the money somewhere else.”"

So it looks like my idea that dividend paying companies offer some protection must be taken with a grain of salt. It seems there is a mechanism to pay dividends to shareholders of counterfeit stock. I still think payment of a regular and significant dividend would be strong disincentive to counterfeiting, but I wanted to point that section out.
I get the impression that your view of market participants is "market makers and everyone else". You're missing that both the major market movers and those with a vested interest in engaging in what you're discussing are not MMs but hedge funds. I'm not sure how many way folks have to explain this, but MMs are neither motivated or benefit from building a large naked position either long or short, so while yes, its possible they could do that it makes no sense for them to do so. A bit like if you're a detective investigating a robbery of a bunch of tools from someone's garage and you could spend your time investigating the work crew that was working next door that day or the elderly retired painter who lives on the other side of the house. Sure, the painter theoretically could have done it, and yes, painters in the past have instigated massive crimes (art theft and forgery) but it makes no sense in this case, especially while there's other much more likely parties to investigate first.
 
My view of what is a "market maker" is simply those who are allowed to use the market maker exceptions in DTCC rules.
DTCC has specific rules to allow more permissive naked shorting by market makers.
There are hundreds of these market makers.
https://www.level2stockquotes.com/market-makers-b-list.html
(That's just the list of market makers that start with the letter B.)

The notion that "market makers" do not engage in large amounts of long duration naked short selling is belied by the fact that there are DTCC rules specific to it.

As for markets makers never engaging in anything that would be outside the scope of market making, the SEC has disagreed:
https://www.mmlawus.com/newsitem/pdf/joic-04-2017-0019_8757744610889.pdf
 
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My view of what is a "market maker" is simply those who are allowed to use the market maker exceptions in DTCC rules.
DTCC has specific rules to allow more permissive naked shorting by market makers.
There are hundreds of these market makers.
https://www.level2stockquotes.com/market-makers-b-list.html
(That's just the list of market makers that start with the letter B.)

The notion that "market makers" do not engage in large amounts of long duration naked short selling is belied by the fact that there are DTCC rules specific to it.

As for markets makers never engaging in anything that would be outside the scope of market making, the SEC has disagreed:
https://www.mmlawus.com/newsitem/pdf/joic-04-2017-0019_8757744610889.pdf
Your view is contradicted right in the title of the link you provided, "What is a Regulation SHO bona-fide market maker?", emphasis mine on the "bona-fide" part. The entire paper is about establishing is considered bona-fide market making vs someone abusively using the market maker exception in DTCC rules, and that's because the regulation is all about establishing when/if a participant is acting as a bona-fide market maker.

You can't use the market maker exceptions if you're not acting as a bona-fide market maker, that's simply the law. The fact that lots of entities are registered as market makers is unremarkable, there are thousands of stock tickers and tens of thousands of options tickers and just because a firm is registered as a MM says nothing about what percentage of that firm's activities are market making. Again, if one believes that the universe is split into retail traders and apparently people pretending to be MMs just to get around the rules, I understand the concern. That's not what the actual world looks like though.
 
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