What really happened ....11 september

Quote from tradermaji:

Most skyscrapers will have the concrete core or shear walls. It actually gives the structure a stiffness to resist lateral loads, typically wind and/or earthquake.

Concrete does have a good fire rating. A 14" square concrete column will typically have a fire rating of about 3 to 4 hours. However, fire will damage concrete and there are many studies on that.

This will give you a starting point.
http://www.civenv.unimelb.edu.au/aptes/publications/Fire-HSC_walls.pdf

Going back to the subject of this discussion, I am not sure what to believe. I tend to support the govt's line, but have doubts creeping up in my mind when I read articles like this.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html

There is some information here that may or may not be tainted.
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/structure.php

All true statements about concrete, wind loads, fire ratings,etc. But the WTC was designed with the exterior columns to resist the wind loads and twist, etc. Most skyscrapers are built this way now. Read about it here. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/index.html

and here:

http://www.ussartf.org/world_trade_center_disaster.htm
 
Quote from Bitstream:

yamasaki associates is appareantly refusing to release the original
designs. dunno what they got to hide. it seems such a straightforward matter
that would settle the scores once and for all.

Don't tell me you think Yamasaki Assoc. is in on the conspiracy, too?


that's your opinion mit professors were not telling as it is.

I never said that. I said: there is no real reason to believe that
they are right about what they say about concrete in the core.

It is not merely my opinion that the likely source for the information
[Hart, F, Henn, W., and Sontag, H., (1985), Multi-Story Buildings in Steel,
Godfrey, G.B., Collins, London] is a secondary source.

It's also not my opinion that nothing is said in the paper about where in the
core these putative reinforced concrete panels were installed.

It's also not my opinion that Professors Buyukozturk and Ulm, despite their
statements about reinforced concrete inlays in the core have the following to
say about the effects of the airplane impacts:

`Step 1 - Impact of the airplane:

The buildings had been designed for the horizontal impact of a large
commercial aircraft. Indeed, the towers withstood the initial impact of the
plane. This is understandable when one considers that the mass of the
buildings was about 2500 times the mass of the aircraft, and that, as has been
reported, the buildings were designed for a steady wind load of roughly 30
times the weight of the plane. The impact of the plane was instantaneously
followed by the ignition of perhaps 40 m^3 of jet fuel. While a fully loaded
Boeing 767-200 can carry up to 90 m^3 of fuel, the flights initiated from
Boston may have carried perhaps half of this amount, comprising about
one-third of the airplane's weight. The impact and the ensuing fireball
definitely caused severe local damage to the building and, in fact,
destroyed some perimeter and core columns across multiple floors.

It has been argued that the damage to several floors should have overloaded
the remaining intact columns in the damaged floors affecting their resistance
to buckling. Yet their resistance was sufficient to carry the loads of the
upper floors almost one hour in the South Tower and almost double that much
in the North Tower.'

Step 2 - The failure of an elevated floor system:

The fireball following the impace may have destroyed some of the
thermal insulation of the structural steel members. The burning of
the jet fuel may have easily caused temperatures in the range of 600C-800C
in the steel. Under these conditions of prolonged heating, structural steel
looses [sic] rigidity and strength. This may have caused further progressive
local element failures, in addition to those failed from the initial impact,
leading to a greater reduction of resistance of the connected two to three
floor structural system. The load to which the column bracing system was
subjected to was the weight transferred from the upper floors. At a certain
stage, after some 50 minutes in the South Tower and some 100 minutes in the
North Tower, the buckling resistance of the columns was reached and collapse
of the columns became inevitable.'


Are the Professors `telling it as it is' here above?

That despite these reinforced concrete inlays in the core, some core columns
were destroyed. That the fireproofing was stripped, and that the fires caused
the structural steel to weaken, leading to eventual collapse?

It sounds an awful lot like the NIST scenario to me.

Is everything the Professors say completely correct and consistent with your
own views?

What's your opinion?

and for what concern demartini since he was an architect he
probably knew what he's talking about even if he worked there when
16.

You're kidding, right?
 
Quote from dpt:

Don't tell me you think Yamasaki Assoc. is in on the conspiracy, too?

Whatever is necessary will be believed.

Nice job on here, dpt. You have way more patience for this (and relevant learning, apparently) than I.
 
Quote from dpt:

Don't tell me you think Yamasaki Assoc. is in on the conspiracy, too?



lol, no. i meant that maybe bush and his cronies have coerced or convinced them not to disclose anything and that seems plausable after the slew of gag orders forced upon most 911 witnesses.

i mean, all the firefighters that heard explosions cant talk to this day about it.



I never said that. I said: there is no real reason to believe that
they are right about what they say about concrete in the core.


well, i can say the exact contrary, that there's no real reason to believe they are wrong about what they say about the core.

It is not merely my opinion that the likely source for the information
[Hart, F, Henn, W., and Sontag, H., (1985), Multi-Story Buildings in Steel,
Godfrey, G.B., Collins, London] is a secondary source.

It's also not my opinion that nothing is said in the paper about where in the
core these putative reinforced concrete panels were installed.

It's also not my opinion that Professors Buyukozturk and Ulm, despite their
statements about reinforced concrete inlays in the core have the following to
say about the effects of the airplane impacts:

`Step 1 - Impact of the airplane:

The buildings had been designed for the horizontal impact of a large
commercial aircraft. Indeed, the towers withstood the initial impact of the
plane. This is understandable when one considers that the mass of the
buildings was about 2500 times the mass of the aircraft, and that, as has been
reported, the buildings were designed for a steady wind load of roughly 30
times the weight of the plane. The impact of the plane was instantaneously
followed by the ignition of perhaps 40 m^3 of jet fuel. While a fully loaded
Boeing 767-200 can carry up to 90 m^3 of fuel, the flights initiated from
Boston may have carried perhaps half of this amount, comprising about
one-third of the airplane's weight. The impact and the ensuing fireball
definitely caused severe local damage to the building and, in fact,
destroyed some perimeter and core columns across multiple floors.
It has been argued that the damage to several floors should have overloaded
the remaining intact columns in the damaged floors affecting their resistance
to buckling. Yet their resistance was sufficient to carry the loads of the
upper floors almost one hour in the South Tower and almost double that much
in the North Tower.'

Step 2 - The failure of an elevated floor system:

The fireball following the impace may have destroyed some of the
thermal insulation of the structural steel members. The burning of
the jet fuel may have easily caused temperatures in the range of 600C-800C
in the steel. Under these conditions of prolonged heating, structural steel
looses [sic] rigidity and strength. This may have caused further progressive
local element failures, in addition to those failed from the initial impact,
leading to a greater reduction of resistance of the connected two to three
floor structural system. The load to which the column bracing system was
subjected to was the weight transferred from the upper floors. At a certain
stage, after some 50 minutes in the South Tower and some 100 minutes in the
North Tower, the buckling resistance of the columns was reached and collapse
of the columns became inevitable.'


Are the Professors `telling it as it is' here above?

That despite these reinforced concrete inlays in the core, some core columns
were destroyed. That the fireproofing was stripped, and that the fires caused
the structural steel to weaken, leading to eventual collapse?


those are opinions, not a description like that of the mit prof. mit may have had access to designs or have seen the towers core themselves. the opinions u posted are based on speculation never supported by photographic evidence. we don't even know if the plane reached the cores! it looks to me like both jets almost disintegrated on impact, leaving the core completely intact, and yes, in all probability also the walls.

the problem we have with damage/fire is that, once more, all the evidence does not support the nist theory: by observing videos and photographs it appears the damage is very limited and certainly not extended to the core. fire were very small, most of the fuel exploded in the 3 huge fireballs: nist/fema needed to speculate the core was damaged to explain the collapse.

It sounds an awful lot like the NIST scenario to me.


lol, yeah it "sounds" :D

Is everything the Professors say completely correct and consistent with your
own views?

What's your opinion?


of course no, the collapses cannot be easily explain that way; there are inconsistencies with the timing of the onset. the second tower got hit first on the lower floors where the columns were much thicker yet it collapses first!! fire was also more contained than in the first tower. many many more inconsistencies: u cant account for them if u go by the official story but if u introduce explosives and the demolition hypothesis u can account for all of them and more as one of the links posted by tradermaji explains.

i will post the content of that link in its entirety later, almost 6 am here, am tired as hell, up all nite.



You're kidding, right?

maybe:D
 
Quote from Bitstream:




lmao, give it more thought.

u are in the same position i am, u can search for a photo of the interior spaces that shows the core columns, were surrounded by mere tiny walls. and the offices, as u say, are extended to the core.

[/B]

MIT i think is a more reliable source than wiki and mentions reinforced concrete walls.

[/B]

sure, engineer haroki has spoken and drawn conclusion from a map that may or may not be true representation, and i bet it is not. photo... lmao. see below.

[/B]

of course there are sites that don't mention the core; in the algoxy site there are countless links describing the core, some mention the concrete others not. those that don't are likely wrong since photographic evidence points at that. i said in my previous posts is that it was much stronger than nist made it to be, as mit and algoxy both concur. and i think i could trust the mit link that the core was there and was made of reinforced concrete. also many photos from 911 indicate its existence:

in this photo u can clearly see the core standing after the collapse and even make up the grey color of the cement walls, dont u think that if it was plywood or even normal cement panels they would have completely disintegrated?

southcorestands.gif



and look at this: the pink arrow points at the core itself and the brown/grey walls the reinforced concrete walls. it's definetly the core since u can see the clear cubic shape and the perimeter walls descending on it. and by looking at the base and they definitely look extremely thick, not like mere panels.
wtc2coreonto3lines.gif


here u can see what remains of the concrete walls attached to the bottom left of the core.

core.corner.arrow.col.jpg


and article from oxford university published in 1992:

oxfordarchcore.jpg


and here's a link to claims from many people that studied and saw the concrete core:

http://cosmicpenguin.com/911/chrisbrown/corerefs/index.html



[/B]

i backed my claim, there's evidence a core was there.


[/B]

that was a wrong link i gave u from the algoxy site.

[/B]

lol, no. only your twisted and biased logic says so. hey, no prob, even i admit i am biased.



[/B]

the page i posted makes no mention whatsoever to conspiracies and that's the case. i wasn't aware of any other links to algoxy. i might have been wrong but i wasn't lying. u better be careful before making wild assertion and accusations.

[/B]

that's a lie and told on purpose to hide the impact of his words: he mentions he believes the towers could withstand multiple jet crashes, infact he says that the planes impact would have done very little damage to the towers.


really? and what about this: -"u are a disgusting piece of filth"-

note that i never attacked u before u posted that.

mit clearly refers to a reinforced concrete core, and u have multiple witnesses describing it. of course like the firemen testimonies about bombs and explosions, u can feel free to down play it. and i also gave u 2 reference that the towers could withstand multiple jet crashes. if that's not enough for u, well too bad.

in the end any one here can make up his own mind about mine and yours credibility. u calling me a liar doesn't certainly make it so. what i said certainly doesn't qualifies as lying.. infact i can accuse u of the very same thing about the statement u just made about de martini not mentioning multiple jet crashes. one thing is for sure though, u are very nasty and intolerant as proven over and over by unprovoked attacked u launched against many skeptics posting here.

-"u are a disgusting piece of filth"-

-"wrong dipshit"-

both were unprovoked attacks to two diff posters, and i am doing u a favor leaving ratty out the picture.


i am done here with u, u can take the stand and talk to yourself as much as u want, but i certainly welcome u to continue to discuss old and new evidence in the future, if u are really committed to keep it civil. i bet u wont last more than a couple of posts, but let's see....i still want to try and believe the govt was not involved. [/B]

You're an embarassment. Some of my links were from CT SITES, and even THEY aren't pushing your theory. Guess you've got the scoop of the millenium.... LMAO

And again, you're a liar. MIT says there's reinforced PANELS...

Most of your photos are an absolute POS, one from across the river. Now, c'mon, what kind of detail can you get from that. The only good one is the one closeup that shows the concrete around the cores down in the bathtub. But the bathtub ain't where the planes hit.......

LMAO at you again with your cosmic penguin link. Did you even read them? One guy writes that there's no steel at all in the core. Just concrete tubes. And I believe the same guy says they put in the sprinklers during the time they were being built. Wrong, they were put in later. Please start reading your own links before you put them up there boss, it's making you look trollish...

ANd you couldn't tell that algoxy was a ct site? Ok, I'll take your word on it...... ROFLMMFAO !!!!!!!!

**that's a lie and told on purpose to hide the impact of his words: he mentions he believes the towers could withstand multiple jet crashes, infact he says that the planes impact would have done very little damage to the towers.**

WTF are you talking about here? Again, my quotes were from 9-11 research, a CT site, and they're in direct conflict with your claims of the buildings being DESIGNED to sustain multiple hits. DeMartini stated it is his OPINION that they coukd take multiple hits. So quit lying.....

About the 'dipshit' comment - the dude IS a dipshit to state that there 'has never been an analysis done on the steel'. Just pointing out the obvious to him, since he was the only one that couldn't see it....

Ratty? Have you noticed that I don't respond to him anymore? Iggy......

You - are disgusting. I could see it right away, and I knew that if I pushed you, I would get what I needed. Let's examine why I Know so :

01-16-07 07:46 PM

it was surrounded by concrete,

Lie.....

the plane impact didn't damage the main supports

Lie.....

the towers were built with multiple plane crashes in mind.

Lie....

What a disgusting piece of filth you are....


01-16-07 08:00 PM

u are an ignorant dumb fuck, full of crap and hatred, u have absolutely no clue about nothing, go inform yourself idiot.

u want me to prove it to u that the towers were built with multiple boeing707 crashes in mind?

make it worthwhile to me scatface, cmon, take me on this, show me u are not only able to spew garbage all day.

go read the nist report clueless piece of junk, it is obvious that the bdg supports weren't damaged by the impact. it was the dislodging of fireproofing that exposed the steel to burning jet fuel that supposedly caused the collapse.

pests like u should be exterminated. ***


***
1-16-07 08:00 PM

go read the nist report clueless piece of junk, it is obvious that the bdg supports weren't damaged by the impact.



since i am not a hypocrite, i have no problems admitting i was wrong.


can u do the same here?***

OK, so in the first post, I am called all sorts of names for calling you a liar. You also say I should read the NIST, 'cause I'm a clueless piece of junk....

But when you examine it all.it appears YOU are doing something shady. 3 possibilities here -

1- you didn't read it yourself, made claims about the content,and then called me a piece of junk for not reading it. That makes you a HYPOCRITE....

or

2- you did read it, but purposely misrepresented content. That makes you a LIAR....

or

3-you did read it, but couldn't understand the very clear summary of the damage that NIST gave, and I gave to you. That makes you a MORON.....

Disgusting.......

Filth........
 
....and STILL TO THIS DAY, no one can explain away the WTC towers sublevel explosions (that killed and injured people there) that occurred prior to the building collapses. No one can explain what dropped many to there feet (including fireman in WTC tower lobbies) ......prior to the WTC collapses. No one can explain away the perfect 45 degree angle burn through cuts to the 47 core columns in the same ground to sublevel areas.

To have any resemblance of intelligence and also believe that the WTC buildings can drop to the ground in 9 seconds from upper level fires still to this day shocks me.......LOL!!! :eek:


NEO-CONNED!
 
5p
>No one can explain away the perfect 45 degree
>angle burn through cuts to the 47 core columns
>in the same ground to sublevel areas.

I'd like to see those -- got pics?

JB
 
Quote from Turok:

5p
>No one can explain away the perfect 45 degree
>angle burn through cuts to the 47 core columns
>in the same ground to sublevel areas.

I'd like to see those -- got pics?

JB

you will just say that the ground zero workers did it. ask hiroshi... he is an iron worker LMAOOOOOOOOO.... he knows. he works on choppers. too funny

both nist and fema have said their theories have "low probability of occurence." yet these boot lickers eat it up like it was chicken.
 
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