What price religion?

Quote from axeman:

If by metaphysical you mean immaterial or incorporeal, then this
begs the question. What's the difference between that
and something which doesn't exist at all?

Carl Sagans dragon in the garage depicts this beautifully.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

Peter, read this snippet from Sagans book "The demon haunted world".

Then please further explain what you mean.


peace

axeman


ok, axe, cute story. the "billions and billions" dude knows for sure now what happens after we die. i'll freely admit that one can not know the nature of the creator as an absolute. however, the creation seems to dictate the need of a creator. i don't see how the dragon story negates this point.

best,

surfer :)
 
Exactly.... thats why I just group them all together
and simply call them "non-believers", all 93% of them :D

Another few decades and it will be 99.9%.....heh..


peace

axeman



Quote from Turok:

Axe:
>97.3% of our National Academy of Scientists
>are non-believers.

Axe correction:
>Actually... its 93% percent... my memory
>was a little off.

Pete:
>The numbers were 72% atheist, 21% agnostic
>(guess we forgot about those guys)

I'm sure you recognize - or perhaps not from the contents of the parens that an agnostic is also an unbeliever and as such was not "forgotten about" in Axe's original statement.

The literal definiton of a/gnostic is "not/knowing" which of course is a far cry from a believer.

JB
 
Quote from Turok:

Axe:
>97.

The literal definition of a/gnostic is "not/knowing" which of course is a far cry from a believer.

JB


agnostic is also a far cry from athiest.

surfer :)
 
".....the "billions and billions" dude knows for sure now what happens after we die. "

Actually this is a loaded statement since it assumes that it's
even possible for him to know such a thing.
We have no reason to believe this is even a possibility.

"however, the creation seems to dictate the need of a creator. i don't see how the dragon story answers this point."

The dragon story does not address this, and wasn't meant to.
The rest of this thread HAS addressed this, and I think that
shoeshines notions of intelligent design has been handily dismissed.


Read the blind watchmaker for an excellent explanation.

peace

axeman



Quote from marketsurfer:

ok, axe, cute story. the "billions and billions" dude knows for sure now what happens after we die. i'll freely admit that one can not know the nature of the creator as an absolute. however, the creation seems to dictate the need of a creator. i don't see how the dragon story answers this point.

best,

surfer :)
 
Such "evidence"--no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it--is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

Now is this how things really work in the scientific world.


String Theory --As of the nova show last week unproven

Big Bang-- now idea what happened during the original microseconds or what happened before

evolution-- discussed this on other threads. I thought dgabriel explained the state of evolution quite well when asked for the proof with the following.

The mechanism of heredity is well understood. Reproduction, genetic combination, molecular genetics have a wealth of data supporting a directive cellular code that is hereditary by its nature.

The possibility and probability for change in this code is well established. Science has witnessed genetic change over generations in simple organism, has documented this change, known as mutations.

Directly observing this type of change in more complex organisms is prohibitive if not impossible due to the time required for generational cycles.

So the way I read it as far as science goes we have no proof of evolution, we will never have it because the generational cycles are too long, but since we have an understanding of heredity, and mutations we are willing to make the great leap of faith to evolution.


Now is that what should be considered sufficient scientific evidence for the existence of God. If it is the case would already be half way done. (I just wanted to point out how disingenuous Carl Sagan and his argument is.)
 
Big surprise that this hard core christian would attack such a book. :D
http://www.dwillard.org/articles/chrislist.asp

He also lectures and publishes in religion: Renovation of the Heart was published in April 2002, The Divine Conspiracy was released in 1998 and selected Christianity Today's "Book of the Year" for 1999. The Spirit of the Disciplines appeared in 1988, and Hearing God (1999) first appeared as In Search of Guidance in 1984 (2nd edition 1993).

He has served on the boards of the C.S. Lewis Foundation


Like duh. Why not read the book for yourseld and judge it
instead listening to someone like this who is completely
biased against the subject matter from the start?

Richard Dawkins is also more qualified in this area of expertise
than the christian reviewer. Things that make you go hmmmm....

http://www.world-of-dawkins.com/Dawkins/Biography/bio.shtml


peace

axeman


Quote from marketsurfer:

after reading this http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=52

that book sorta lost its luster.

best,

surfer :)
 
I just wanted to point out how disingenuous Carl Sagan and his argument is.

You failed. Just where did you accomplish this???


peace

axeman




Quote from jem:

Such "evidence"--no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it--is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

Now is this how things really work in the scientific world.


String Theory --As of the nova show last week unproven

Big Bang-- now idea what happened during the original microseconds or what happened before

evolution-- discussed this on other threads. I thought dgabriel explained the state of evolution quite well when asked for the proof with the following.

The mechanism of heredity is well understood. Reproduction, genetic combination, molecular genetics have a wealth of data supporting a directive cellular code that is hereditary by its nature.

The possibility and probability for change in this code is well established. Science has witnessed genetic change over generations in simple organism, has documented this change, known as mutations.

Directly observing this type of change in more complex organisms is prohibitive if not impossible due to the time required for generational cycles.

So the way I read it as far as science goes we have no proof of evolution, we will never have it because the generational cycles are too long, but since we have an understanding of heredity, and mutations we are willing to make the great leap of faith to evolution.


Now is that what should be considered sufficient scientific evidence for the existence of God. If it is the case would already be half way done. (I just wanted to point out how disingenuous Carl Sagan and his argument is.)
 
Quote from axeman:

Big surprise that this hard core christian would attack such a book. :D
http://www.dwillard.org/articles/chrislist.asp

He also lectures and publishes in religion: Renovation of the Heart was published in April 2002, The Divine Conspiracy was released in 1998 and selected Christianity Today's "Book of the Year" for 1999. The Spirit of the Disciplines appeared in 1988, and Hearing God (1999) first appeared as In Search of Guidance in 1984 (2nd edition 1993).

He has served on the boards of the C.S. Lewis Foundation


Like duh. Why not read the book for yourseld and judge it
instead listening to someone like this who is completely
biased against the subject matter from the start?

Richard Dawkins is also more qualified in this area of expertise
than the christian reviewer. Things that make you go hmmmm....

http://www.world-of-dawkins.com/Dawkins/Biography/bio.shtml


peace

axeman

no question dawkin is HIGHLY qualified. williard even admits this. he is a excellent scientist, however his bias is overwhelmingly evident in the "blind watch maker"

best,

surfer :)
 
And how do you know this? Did you read it, or are you taking
a theistic philosophers word for it who enjoys attacking
books like this?


I completely disagree with this statement, and I have read the
whole book several times.

If you wish to call his scientific way of thinking a bias, then so bet it.

peace

axeman


Quote from marketsurfer:

no question dawkin is HIGHLY qualified. williard even admits this. he is a excellent scientist, however his bias is overwhelmingly evident in the "blind watch maker"

best,

surfer :)
 
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