What is the traditional course of study for a career trader?

rallymode said:
Hi G, it's been a while. Are you suggesting that we are already at a place where coding and programming are the drivers and not just the tools? While I would agree that we are headed there eventually, I would like to think that the faith of the independent trader has not been sealed just yet. Though, I've been a little out of touch with your part of the industry lately.

I would offer an alternative path with odds that are, IMO, in par with those of the guy who can actually afford MIT, Cornell or has done something so impressive so as to have the tab picked up for them.

Study math/stats in high school/college -> get a job related to your degree and be financially responsible -> trade on the side until you are relatively sure that you have alpha not luck -> push leverage to the max while such alpha exists. Clearly, it would probably take a little longer but an Ivy League school is simply out of reach for many.
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I was more pointing out that out of the possible trading "jobs" there are plenty of options that are more lucrative, fulfilling and certain than trying to work at Goldman.

Almost nobody here as ever worked at an investment bank and the amount of ignorance about the entire trading industry is pretty astonishing.

To your other point, I think we've definitely made the shift to where technology is the driver rather than simply the enabler. All the firms I see struggling or failing are ones that have failed to invest in technology and they are being replaced by newer firms who are definitely relying much more on tech.

I've seen a few exceptions but not many. Manual trading is still possible and probably will be for a while yet but I wouldn't bank on it for someone going to school now and thinking that they'd make a career out of it. Plus, there's so much misinformation about how to go about it properly that the person would have to invest significant time figuring it out for himself. Anyone smart enough to do that should just use that time to learn to program instead.
 
Manual trading isn't going away anytime soon.

Computers are great for speed, nobody can touch them on that.

But what computers can't do is long, slow, observation and that is critical to making money in this game (in time periods above micro-secs). That is how you beat them, you don't play to their strengths, you play against their weakness and their weakness is they cannot slowly observe. So they go fast and we go slow. They control that part of the market, and we control the other part.

Computers also aren't good at logic, which means they definably aren't going to get 'illogical' and markets are both. Knowing when to apply logic and illogic is therefore another great edge a human has over computers.

Computers, a) don't be scared of them in the market, and b) don't be worried about their effectiveness in the future. They have a role in the markets but they are not going to take over. Sadly, Hollywood has made us all think they will, makes for good stories and how we humans love a good scare story as well.
 
kmiklas said:
Heya Peeps,

1. What would a career trader typically study as a college/university undergrad (in the USA)?
2. What would they study in grad school?

Also,
3. What is the typical career path for a trader? I imagine:
College -> Grad School -> recruited by Goldman -> Get licenses -> Trade for a few years -> Retire a millionaire at age 42.

Is this about right?

Thanks,
Keith
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having an edge
kmiklas said:
Heya Peeps,

1. What would a career trader typically study as a college/university undergrad (in the USA)?
2. What would they study in grad school?

Also,
3. What is the typical career path for a trader? I imagine:
College -> Grad School -> recruited by Goldman -> Get licenses -> Trade for a few years -> Retire a millionaire at age 42.

Is this about right?

Thanks,
Keith
More...

Truth
route 1
trading strategy 1 to 15, 1 year each
change in dna and genes -rewire brain to a trading brain 1 full life time or more

route 2
spend first 2 years reading psychology in detail 2 years
2 more years on strategies and probabilities = 4 years total

until u been there , u wont know why
 
AbbotAle said:
Computers also aren't good at logic, which means they definably aren't going to get 'illogical' and markets are both. Knowing when to apply logic and illogic is therefore another great edge a human has over computers.
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Sounds perfectly logical to me. Aristotle would be proud.
 
This is just my own 2 cents and my own thoughts since I started trading in Chicago in the early 1990's.

Just being able to write code won't make a person a trader. Statistical analyses as a background would be strong, but when taken in isolation that would not make a trader. Sound cognitive reasoning would help any person to do almost anything better, but having a strong background in psychiatric behavior wouldn't by itself make someone a trader. If any of those were true, you would have tens of thousands of programmers and statisticians and psychiatrists marching straight out of school and into trading careers en mass.

One thing that I have seen over the years in terms of successful traders I've met along the way is a flair for a very high level of gamesmanship and a predatory strategy in terms of how they approach the market. I don't know if those are the right descriptive terms, but successful traders definitely have generated creative and adaptive ways to take money out of the markets. No, they might not be chess players or poker players per se, but IMHO there is definitely something to be said for combining a deep understanding of market mechanics and creative predation.
 
algonoise said:
Gamesmanship and predatory as in illegal? Certainly appears to be a lot of that going on these days.
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No, I wasn't really trying to imply treachery. I guess "creative" and a healthy appetite for calculated risk was more along the lines of what I was trying to express.
 
@bone you hit the nail there...

I've interviewed dozens of guys wanting to be a trader... Some with great marks in Uni, some with totally irrelevant degrees. I would always ask the question, why do you want to be a trader? If the only reason is to make a shitload of money... usually that would be a "no sorry but thanks for coming in".

When it comes to becoming a successful trader... it's more about the personality than the degree. Trading is 90% boring, but you need to be on top of it anyway. So highly driven, creative in the way that you find new ways to make money (edge), very competitive and indeed gamesmanship. I would say by predatory you mean extreme competitiveness?

It's still a numbers game so you need to be good at numbers. Programming to me is a plus, but it depends on what you're looking for. Someone needs to come up with the idea... that would be the trader, not a programmer... and that's the hard creative thinking part.

I would rather see a trader with a drive that understands how markets work and can push a button, smart but maybe not have the highest degree... than a PhD who only looks at theoretical things and can't possibly translate into a trade.
 
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