What is the historical evidence that Jesus Christ lived and died?
- Thread starter OddTrader
- Start date
Sadly the original manuscript for the Josephus account no longer exists. The only thing we have is a copy, and unfortunately it isn't a zerox copy. It's not impossible that a little precocious, ill legitimate child, was a very convincing, Donald Trump like liar who sucked in a lot of followers, pissed the mainstream religious folks off, and got himself crucified by Romans. Now the part about the water into wine, the three days dead before popping back to life, that's not possible. Paul was probably the legitimate founder of the Christian Church. A heads up organizer like one of today's TV evangelists. Paul doesn't have much to say about "jesus," whom he could not have known, but some think he knew Jesus's brother James and that they disagreed on how the cult should be promoted and managed.
If you are writing about someone 60 years after they were supposed to have been alive, but you never met them, and there are no substantiated records whatsoever of their existence, and you describe them in terms that avoid the earthly but refer only to the heavenly, as the author known only as Paul did, then the whole account is in fact a fictional one.
Many other authors who similarly failed to name themselves 200 and 300 years later, take up the tale, expand, embellish, contort and promote it to use as an alternative religiously based political tool in order to attract and organize Jews away from their established beliefs, to radically oppose the Romans. Like Trump with the Republican party.
However it's quite possible the whole thing originally kicked off when Mary could only think of lying her way out of a situation. Again like Trump.
Many other authors who similarly failed to name themselves 200 and 300 years later, take up the tale, expand, embellish, contort and promote it to use as an alternative religiously based political tool in order to attract and organize Jews away from their established beliefs, to radically oppose the Romans. Like Trump with the Republican party.
However it's quite possible the whole thing originally kicked off when Mary could only think of lying her way out of a situation. Again like Trump.
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OK, some modern versions are that way, because the reading level/comp of so many has fallen.
Where there is no vision the people perish. Proverbs 28 KJV
As far as evidence, I've had God heal me so many times, a sceptic 's opinion is simply bad eyesight, so to speak.[Psalm 107; 20, KJV, NCV'Chasm..... to the knowledge of reality??'' Faith is the title deed, Hebrews 11:A, Amplified Classic Bible. A renter does not know about a real estate title deed, because he choses to not know about a title deed.For real estate buyers, all the renter hogwash, about a lack of a title deed [faith]= ignorance on display. Thanks
If you are writing about someone 60 years after they were supposed to have been alive, but you never met them, and there are no substantiated records whatsoever of their existence, and you describe them in terms that avoid the earthly but refer only to the heavenly, as the author known only as Paul did, then the whole account is in fact a fictional one.
Many other authors who similarly failed to name themselves 200 and 300 years later, take up the tale, expand, embellish, contort and promote it to use as an alternative religiously based political tool in order to attract and organize Jews away from their established beliefs, to radically oppose the Romans. Like Trump with the Republican party.
However it's quite possible the whole thing originally kicked off when Mary could only think of lying her way out of a situation. Again like Trump.
Your post is wrong on so many levels. Who supposedly wrote what 2-300 years after?
An interesting thing to ponder about:
What are the chances for a historic, original but contradictory document to the 4 Gospels to survive 2 millenniums of Catholic dogma? If such document got into the hands of any zealous priest, chances are that they would have burnt it never mentioning it again. Thus such documents hardly exist.
Yet, such documents did survive. One way they could survive was if they were discovered only quite late, let's say in the last century or in the last few decades. Here is an example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
"The Gospel of Judas is a Gnostic gospel whose content consists of conversations between Jesus and Judas Iscariot. It is thought to have been composed in the second century by Gnostic Christians, not by Judas, since it contains late-2nd-century theology. The only copy of it known to exist is a Coptic language text that has been carbon dated to AD 280, plus or minus 60 years. It has been suggested that the text derives from an earlier Greek version. A translation of the text was first published in early 2006 by the National Geographic Society.
In contrast to the canonical gospels,.... "
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By the way I always thought Judas was one of the heros of the gospels. Without him the Romans can not find Jesus, thus there is no crucifixion, no saving of mankind, etc. Long live Judas!!!!
What are the chances for a historic, original but contradictory document to the 4 Gospels to survive 2 millenniums of Catholic dogma? If such document got into the hands of any zealous priest, chances are that they would have burnt it never mentioning it again. Thus such documents hardly exist.
Yet, such documents did survive. One way they could survive was if they were discovered only quite late, let's say in the last century or in the last few decades. Here is an example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
"The Gospel of Judas is a Gnostic gospel whose content consists of conversations between Jesus and Judas Iscariot. It is thought to have been composed in the second century by Gnostic Christians, not by Judas, since it contains late-2nd-century theology. The only copy of it known to exist is a Coptic language text that has been carbon dated to AD 280, plus or minus 60 years. It has been suggested that the text derives from an earlier Greek version. A translation of the text was first published in early 2006 by the National Geographic Society.
In contrast to the canonical gospels,.... "
---------------------------
By the way I always thought Judas was one of the heros of the gospels. Without him the Romans can not find Jesus, thus there is no crucifixion, no saving of mankind, etc. Long live Judas!!!!
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OK, some modern versions are that way, because the reading level/comp of so many has fallen.
Where there is no vision the people perish. Proverbs 28 KJV
'Chasm..... to the knowledge of reality??'' Faith is the title deed, Hebrews 11:A, Amplified Classic Bible. A renter does not know about a real estate title deed, because he choses to not know about a title deed.For real estate buyers, all the renter hogwash, about a lack of a title deed [faith]= ignorance on display. Thanks
Not sure what your saying. I guess I'm saying the bible itself is a kind of interpretation and most interpretations are for philosophical sophomores , imo.
My point, and I think one supported by John 3:17 is that some kind of condemnation has already happened and we are already in the proverbial hell...and I think a slip in one of the letters of Peter supports that as well (by slip I mean not 100% of the books were sanitized for official public consumption). Just because there are golf courses here doesn't change that. We ate simply trying to make hell a home and as comfortable as possible . We don't want to admit this so we pay pastors and other lawyer-like minds to tell us hell is some other place some other time and we ate here in *middle earth* required to choose sides in some battle and show loyalty to one side or another expecting to qualify for one of two other places to go. That's the official narrative...bit I'm saying we've already chosen sides and that's why we are "here" completely deluded (in the dark) as to why we are here. Unbelief in Christ predates even the garden of Eden ...one of the official narratives as to why we are here...but is rather one of the popular self- deceptions about the genesis of our condition .
Faith? Faith is a seminal primary prehistoric sin of monstrous proportions . Yes it does "make" (not create) the ground/dirt/substance ("real estate") we stand upon as well the mountains we climb...and the book of Hebrews supports me in saying exactly this... as well what Jesus says about faith moving mountains. But mountains and the ground we stand upon are sins that will crumble like a foundation of sand. Knowledge on the other hand is the title deed to heaven not the title deed to hell. There is no faith in heaven and there is no knowledge in hell.
Knowledge is an aspect/quality of Christ while faith is an aspect quality of all that is anti-Christ. We are here because we condemn knowledge (even before the genesis of a material world) and in condemning knowledge we condemn our selves.
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200 to 300 years of changing New Testament stories is probably being generous.
For example in the earliest manuscripts of John's gospel, Jesus doesn't say "Let any among you who is without sin cast the first stone." That line appears much later in texts of the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
Similarly the author who wrote the Mark gospel story gets his tale completed for him later in the 2nd century by other anonymous authors.
etc etc etc
"the gospels we read today have been edited and corrupted over time, leading Origen [Origen Adamantius, early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian] to complain in the 3rd century that "the differences among manuscripts have become great, ... [because copyists] either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please" wikipedia
It is beyond naive (I won't say ignorant) to believe numerous authors weren't messing around with what would eventually be adopted as the New Testament Bible up to it being formalized in the 4th century (Codex Sinaiticus).
The impression given is one that the New Testament stories are authentic in every respect. Nothing could be further from the truth.
200 to 300 years of changing New Testament stories is probably being generous.
For example in the earliest manuscripts of John's gospel, Jesus doesn't say "Let any among you who is without sin cast the first stone." That line appears much later in texts of the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
Similarly the author who wrote the Mark gospel story gets his tale completed for him later in the 2nd century by other anonymous authors.
etc etc etc
"the gospels we read today have been edited and corrupted over time, leading Origen [Origen Adamantius, early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian] to complain in the 3rd century that "the differences among manuscripts have become great, ... [because copyists] either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please" wikipedia
It is beyond naive (I won't say ignorant) to believe numerous authors weren't messing around with what would eventually be adopted as the New Testament Bible up to it being formalized in the 4th century (Codex Sinaiticus).
The impression given is one that the New Testament stories are authentic in every respect. Nothing could be further from the truth.
My Bible notes passages where differences in manuscripts are found. Studied them. Doesn’t change the narrative or my Faith.
You never take up the gauntlet against other religions which by your definition are false but seem to have an enormous interest in Christianity an a God you say doesn’t exist. Interesting.
I’ll pray for ya Stu.