What is the historical evidence that Jesus Christ lived and died?
- Thread starter OddTrader
- Start date
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/torrey_ra/fundamentals/25.cfm
FULFILLED PROPHECY A POTENT ARGUMENT
FOR THE BIBLE
FOR THE BIBLE
By Arno C. Gaebelein,
Editor of "Our Hope," New York City
Editor of "Our Hope," New York City
"Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and show us what shall happen; let them show the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them, or declare us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know, that ye are gods" (Isaiah 41:21-23). "I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10).
This is Jehovah's challenge to the idol-gods of Babylon to predict future events. He alone can do that. The Lord can declare the end from the beginning, and make known things that are not yet done. The dumb idols of the heathen know nothing concerning the future. They cannot predict what is going to happen. And man himself is powerless to know future events and cannot find out things to come.
PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE
The prophecies of the Bible must be first of all divided into three classes:
- 1. Prophecies which have found already their fulfillment.
- 2. Prophecies which are now in process of fulfillment. Many predictions written several thousand years ago are now being accomplished before our eyes. We mention those which relate to the national and spiritual condition of the Jewish people and the predictions concerning the moral and religious condition of the present age.
- 3. Prophecies which are still unfulfilled. We have reference to those which predict the second, glorious and visible coming of our Lord, the re-gathering of Israel and their restoration to the land of promise, judgments which will fall upon the nations of the earth, the establishment of the Kingdom, the conversion of the world, universal peace and righteousness, the deliverance of groaning creation, and others.
Same article as above, but this contains some specific prophecies about Jesus that were fulfilled:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/torrey_ra/fundamentals/25.cfm
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/torrey_ra/fundamentals/25.cfm
MESSIANIC PROPHECIES AND THEIR FULFILLMENT
The Old Testament contains a most wonderful chain of prophecies concerning the person, the life and work of our Lord. As He is the center of the whole revelation of God, the One upon whom all rests, we turn first of all to a few of the prophecies which speak of Him. This also is very necessary. The destructive criticism has gone so far as to state that there are no predictions at all concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Such a denial leads to and is linked with the denial of Christ Himself, especially the denial of His Deity and His work on the cross.
To follow the large number of prophecies concerning the coming of Christ into the world and the work He was to accomplish we cannot attempt in these pages. We point out briefly in a general way what must be familiar to most Christians who search the Scriptures. Christ is first announced in Genesis 3:15 to be the seed of the woman, and therefore a human being. In Genesis 9:26-27 the supremacy of Shem is predicted. The full revelation of Jehovah God is connected with Shem and in due time a son of Shem, Abraham, received the promise that the predicted seed was to come from him. (Genesis 12:8). Messiah was to come from the seed of Abraham.
Then the fact was revealed that He was to come from Isaac and not from Ishmael, from Jacob and not from Esau. But Jacob had twelve sons. The Divine prediction pointed to Judah and later to the house of David of the tribe of Judah from which the Messiah should spring. When we come to the prophecies of Isaiah we learn that His mother is to be a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). But the son born of the virgin is Immanuel, God with us. Clearly the prophetic Word in Isaiah states that the Messiah would be a child born and a Son given with the names, "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). The promised Messiah is to be the seed of a woman, of the seed of Abraham, of David, born of a virgin. He is to be Immanuel, the Son given, God manifested in the flesh.
This promised Messiah, the Son of David, should appear (according to Isaiah 11:1) after the house of David had been stripped of its royal dignity and glory. And what more could we say of the prophecies which speak of His life, His poverty, the works He was to do, His rejection by His own people, the Jews. In that matchless chapter in Isaiah, the fifty third [Isaiah 53], the rejection of Christ by His own nation is predicted. In another chapter a still more startling prophecy is recorded: "Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for naught and in vain" [Isaiah 49:4]. This is Messiah's lament on account of His rejection. Then follows the answer, which contains a most striking prophecy: "It is a light thing that Thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel: I also will give Thee for a light to the Gentiles, that Thou mayest be My salvation unto the ends of the earth" (Isaiah 49:5-6). Here the revelation is given that He would not alone be rejected by His own nation, but that He would also bring salvation to the Gentiles. What human mind could have ever invented such a program! The promised Messiah of Israel, the longed-for One, is predicted to be rejected by His own people and thus becomes the Saviour of the despised Gentiles. His sufferings and His death are even more minutely predicted.
In the Book of Psalms the sufferings of Christ, the deep agony of His soul, the expressions of His sorrow and His grief, are pre-written by the Spirit of God. We mention only one Psalm, the twenty-second [Psalm 22]. His death by crucifixion is prophesied. Yet death by crucifixion was in David's time an unknown mode of death. Cruel Rome invented that horrible form of death. The cry of the forsaken One is predicted in the very words which came from the lips of our Saviour out of the darkness which enshrouded the cross. So are also predicted the words of mockery by those who looked on; the piercing of His hands and feet; the parting of the garments and the casting of the lots. In the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah [Isaiah 53], the purpose of His death is so blessedly predicted. He was to die the substitute of sinners. There we find also His burial and His resurrection predicted. All this was recorded 700 years before our Lord was born. In the Psalms we find the prophecy that the rejected One would occupy a place at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1). He was to leave the earth. David's Son and David's Lord was to have a place in the highest glory, even at the right hand of God, to wait there till His enemies are made His footstool. It is indeed a wonderful chain of prophecies concerning Christ. We could give a very few of these predictions. How they all were long ago literally fulfilled in the coming, in the life, in the death, in the resurrection and ascension of our adorable Lord, all true believers know.
The Old Testament contains a most wonderful chain of prophecies concerning the person, the life and work of our Lord. As He is the center of the whole revelation of God, the One upon whom all rests, we turn first of all to a few of the prophecies which speak of Him. This also is very necessary. The destructive criticism has gone so far as to state that there are no predictions at all concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Such a denial leads to and is linked with the denial of Christ Himself, especially the denial of His Deity and His work on the cross.
To follow the large number of prophecies concerning the coming of Christ into the world and the work He was to accomplish we cannot attempt in these pages. We point out briefly in a general way what must be familiar to most Christians who search the Scriptures. Christ is first announced in Genesis 3:15 to be the seed of the woman, and therefore a human being. In Genesis 9:26-27 the supremacy of Shem is predicted. The full revelation of Jehovah God is connected with Shem and in due time a son of Shem, Abraham, received the promise that the predicted seed was to come from him. (Genesis 12:8). Messiah was to come from the seed of Abraham.
Then the fact was revealed that He was to come from Isaac and not from Ishmael, from Jacob and not from Esau. But Jacob had twelve sons. The Divine prediction pointed to Judah and later to the house of David of the tribe of Judah from which the Messiah should spring. When we come to the prophecies of Isaiah we learn that His mother is to be a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). But the son born of the virgin is Immanuel, God with us. Clearly the prophetic Word in Isaiah states that the Messiah would be a child born and a Son given with the names, "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). The promised Messiah is to be the seed of a woman, of the seed of Abraham, of David, born of a virgin. He is to be Immanuel, the Son given, God manifested in the flesh.
This promised Messiah, the Son of David, should appear (according to Isaiah 11:1) after the house of David had been stripped of its royal dignity and glory. And what more could we say of the prophecies which speak of His life, His poverty, the works He was to do, His rejection by His own people, the Jews. In that matchless chapter in Isaiah, the fifty third [Isaiah 53], the rejection of Christ by His own nation is predicted. In another chapter a still more startling prophecy is recorded: "Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for naught and in vain" [Isaiah 49:4]. This is Messiah's lament on account of His rejection. Then follows the answer, which contains a most striking prophecy: "It is a light thing that Thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel: I also will give Thee for a light to the Gentiles, that Thou mayest be My salvation unto the ends of the earth" (Isaiah 49:5-6). Here the revelation is given that He would not alone be rejected by His own nation, but that He would also bring salvation to the Gentiles. What human mind could have ever invented such a program! The promised Messiah of Israel, the longed-for One, is predicted to be rejected by His own people and thus becomes the Saviour of the despised Gentiles. His sufferings and His death are even more minutely predicted.
In the Book of Psalms the sufferings of Christ, the deep agony of His soul, the expressions of His sorrow and His grief, are pre-written by the Spirit of God. We mention only one Psalm, the twenty-second [Psalm 22]. His death by crucifixion is prophesied. Yet death by crucifixion was in David's time an unknown mode of death. Cruel Rome invented that horrible form of death. The cry of the forsaken One is predicted in the very words which came from the lips of our Saviour out of the darkness which enshrouded the cross. So are also predicted the words of mockery by those who looked on; the piercing of His hands and feet; the parting of the garments and the casting of the lots. In the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah [Isaiah 53], the purpose of His death is so blessedly predicted. He was to die the substitute of sinners. There we find also His burial and His resurrection predicted. All this was recorded 700 years before our Lord was born. In the Psalms we find the prophecy that the rejected One would occupy a place at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1). He was to leave the earth. David's Son and David's Lord was to have a place in the highest glory, even at the right hand of God, to wait there till His enemies are made His footstool. It is indeed a wonderful chain of prophecies concerning Christ. We could give a very few of these predictions. How they all were long ago literally fulfilled in the coming, in the life, in the death, in the resurrection and ascension of our adorable Lord, all true believers know.
Here is a reminder, you poor deluded fools.
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...st-lived-and-died.308633/page-31#post-4997096
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...st-lived-and-died.308633/page-31#post-4997096
Talking of fools, in another short episode of "Praise Be, How Do They Do That?", from the authors of "Rabbi Hunting With Dogs"... (The Role of the Typo and Antisemitism) , we look at Old Testament Bible prophesy claimed to come true later in the New Testament.
Isiah: Chapter 101: (King Jessy version)
1.4 On his return, Isiah brought his wife within and said unto her,
1.5 Lo, I sayeth unto thee, woman, God doth command me, two children shall thy give birth to by thy seed.
1.6 And it was so.
2.1. Verily, a thousand years did pass and during the reign of Herod , the Lord adding 1 sheep unto one other, called unto his followers, "look what I have done for thee. Thou shalt no longer have one, but are given two".
2.2 Thus, as the prophets had foretold, it was fulfilled. The Lord did command there be two.
Writers of the New Testament simply spun their New Testament stories around the Old Testament.
What?!!! You twisted the Old Testament, and tried to make it sound like the New Testament was quoting from it....but nothing you posted was from the Old or New Testament. I even checked the Hebrew version from Chabad.org.
There is a similarity to one verse, but everything else is made up, not from the scriptures. So, what is this "King Jessy Version"? The atheist version of corruption?
There is a similarity to one verse, but everything else is made up, not from the scriptures. So, what is this "King Jessy Version"? The atheist version of corruption?
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It is parody. It is imitating Biblical style. It is satirical (admittedly very bad) mimicry exemplifying how The New Bible book simply uses the Old Bible book to contrive prophecies.
Accounts of subsequent events in the New Testament were clearly tailored to fit earlier ones from the Old Testament, and are also further translated (contorted) by believers like yourself to be claimed as prophecies.
Isiah is an example of that. We already did this in another thread.
Your only response, as well as throwing gigabytes of irrelevant biblical text at everything, has been...
1. The Bible is true because the Bible says it is
2. Isiah was making prophesy in 'Back to the Future' style
Hope that helps
btw.
You have me on ignore lol, so how come you keep replying to my posts? Is it that underneath all that religious brainwashing the spark of innate critical inquiry still lurks somewhere deep down? Quick, throw your bible at it!
Yes, we discused the Isaiah texts, and I showed proof that is accepted by scholars that the Isaiah texts were written before Jesus was born, AND that the texts do NOT deviate from what we have today.
Here's a memory refresher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Scroll
Scrolling down a bit:
The exact authors of 1QIsaa are unknown, as is the exact date of writing. Pieces of the scroll have dated using both radiocarbon dating and palaeographic/scribal dating giving calibrated date ranges between 356 and 103 BCE and 150–100 BCE respectively.
Well, I could take you off ignore, but then I'm afraid you'll put me on ignore, so now I have the upper hand. Ignore doesn't mean much, apparently, since we are having a conversation.
Here's a memory refresher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Scroll
The Isaiah Scroll, designated 1QIsaa and also known as the Great Isaiah Scroll, is one of the seven Dead Sea Scrolls that were first discovered by Bedouin shepherds in 1946 from QumranCave 1.
The exact authors of 1QIsaa are unknown, as is the exact date of writing. Pieces of the scroll have dated using both radiocarbon dating and palaeographic/scribal dating giving calibrated date ranges between 356 and 103 BCE and 150–100 BCE respectively.
Well, I could take you off ignore, but then I'm afraid you'll put me on ignore, so now I have the upper hand. Ignore doesn't mean much, apparently, since we are having a conversation.
There was never an argument that the 'Isaiah Scrolls' don't exist. The argument is, the New Testament authors in their stories, along with blind unthinking closed minded religious believers (like yourself), have later spun tales and fantasies around the scrolls, to create claims of prophesy which are so obviously no such thing.
In a hapless attempt to circumvent that reality, you've played the Marty McFly Isaiah card, using nonsensical apologetics' own "Prophetic Perfect Tense", which of course there is no such thing. Isaiah as a prophet is resemblant to the spoof I posted earlier more than anything else.
Yeah definitely, you have the upper hand because you're afraid I'd put you on ignore, so you pointlessly put me on ignore, to keep taking me off ignore to read my posts.
in your head rent free dude
Stu wrote:
But there is such a thing as "Prophetic Perfect Tense"
According to Wikipedia:
Many of the prophets of the Old Testament used it, not just Isaiah. For example, Zechariah wrote a verse that clearly is describing Jesus. And this was written hundreds of years before Jesus lived. It describes, as if it had already happened, that God was pierced, before Jesus ever did get pierced on the cross.
I'm sure you'll try to find a way to dismiss this passage from being evidence, because you don't want to face up to the implications it's truth will have on your life. But the fact is, it was definitely written hundreds of years before Jesus came and it offers quite a bit of evidence for any honest seekers, to come to the realization that God did foretell of Jesus and His sacrifice for us, before it happened. God "declares the end from the beginning."
This is the passage in Zechariah 12:10, BSB version:
The prophet is quoting God who is foretelling a future even in which all of Israel will look at God (the One speaking) and Who describes Himself as the One whom they have "pierced."
Other passages in the Bible also mention there will be a time when people will visibly see God. Jesus said to His people that they would not see Him again until they say, "For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you (meaning the nation of Israel) say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ” Matt.23:39
Also, Revelation 1:7
An excellent article on the Zechariah passage can be found here:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Zechariah-12-10-Messianic.html
In addition to the idea of a “pierced” God is the concept of the “only child.” Zechariah’s mention of a “firstborn son” bears an unmistakable connection to Jesus as God’s Son. The Hebrew word bekor was translated in the Septuagint as prototokos, the same term used for Jesus in Colossians 1:15: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [prototokos] of all creation.” And, of course, there is John 3:16, which includes a reference to Jesus as God’s “one and only Son.”
This Messianic prophecy has not yet been completely fulfilled. Jesus has been “pierced,” but there will still be a future time when all of Jerusalem will see Him and mourn their ill treatment of Him. At that time, they will cry out to God for mercy, and He will answer them by saving them from their enemies: “On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem. . . . I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem” (Zechariah 12:8-9). These events will occur at the end of the tribulation period at Christ’s second coming.
In summary, Zechariah 12:10 predicts the piercing of the Son of God, the Messiah, fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross and was pierced by a spear in His side (John 19:36–37). The complete fulfillment of this verse awaits the last days when the Jewish people will plead for mercy from the One they have pierced.
In a hapless attempt to circumvent that reality, you've played the Marty McFly Isaiah card, using nonsensical apologetics' own "Prophetic Perfect Tense", which of course there is no such thing.
According to Wikipedia:
The prophetic perfect tense is a literary technique used in the Bible that describes future events that are so certain to happen that they are referred to in the past tense as if they had already happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophetic_perfect_tense#:~:text=The prophetic perfect tense is,if they had already happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophetic_perfect_tense#:~:text=The prophetic perfect tense is,if they had already happened.
I'm sure you'll try to find a way to dismiss this passage from being evidence, because you don't want to face up to the implications it's truth will have on your life. But the fact is, it was definitely written hundreds of years before Jesus came and it offers quite a bit of evidence for any honest seekers, to come to the realization that God did foretell of Jesus and His sacrifice for us, before it happened. God "declares the end from the beginning."
This is the passage in Zechariah 12:10, BSB version:
Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Other passages in the Bible also mention there will be a time when people will visibly see God. Jesus said to His people that they would not see Him again until they say, "For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you (meaning the nation of Israel) say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ” Matt.23:39
Also, Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Zechariah-12-10-Messianic.html
Zechariah 12:10 reads, “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This prediction, that Israel will see someone whom they “pierced,” is amazing because it is God Himself speaking—the Lord is the One who is “pierced.” This appears to fit later descriptions of Jesus Christ’s suffering. Indeed, the New Testament specifies that this prophecy is truly Messianic.
This verse indicates a future time when the Jewish people will plead for the mercy of God. This will happen when they see “the one they have pierced.” Zechariah’s verse is mentioned in John 19:36-37 when Jesus, hanging on the cross, was pierced with a spear: “These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: . . . ‘They will look on the one they have pierced.’” Revelation 1:7 adds, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him”—definitely an allusion to Zechariah 12:10. Isaiah 53:5 also predicts that the Messiah would be pierced: “But he was pierced for our transgressions.”In addition to the idea of a “pierced” God is the concept of the “only child.” Zechariah’s mention of a “firstborn son” bears an unmistakable connection to Jesus as God’s Son. The Hebrew word bekor was translated in the Septuagint as prototokos, the same term used for Jesus in Colossians 1:15: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [prototokos] of all creation.” And, of course, there is John 3:16, which includes a reference to Jesus as God’s “one and only Son.”
This Messianic prophecy has not yet been completely fulfilled. Jesus has been “pierced,” but there will still be a future time when all of Jerusalem will see Him and mourn their ill treatment of Him. At that time, they will cry out to God for mercy, and He will answer them by saving them from their enemies: “On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem. . . . I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem” (Zechariah 12:8-9). These events will occur at the end of the tribulation period at Christ’s second coming.
In summary, Zechariah 12:10 predicts the piercing of the Son of God, the Messiah, fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross and was pierced by a spear in His side (John 19:36–37). The complete fulfillment of this verse awaits the last days when the Jewish people will plead for mercy from the One they have pierced.