What happened to gold at 6:39EST (13 nov)?
- Thread starter paperclip
- Start date
Let me make myself more clear.
I completely disagree with you. Trades are trades, no matter what. If someone wants to try to "game" the market, then they take risk to do so, and they accept that. If you got caught in a stop cascade, that's YOUR fault -- not the exchange, not some ubiquitous undefined "They", YOURS.
Pure and simple: NO trade should EVER be broken. If you think that's absurd, don't ever place a trade in Japan.
I completely disagree with you. Trades are trades, no matter what. If someone wants to try to "game" the market, then they take risk to do so, and they accept that. If you got caught in a stop cascade, that's YOUR fault -- not the exchange, not some ubiquitous undefined "They", YOURS.
Pure and simple: NO trade should EVER be broken. If you think that's absurd, don't ever place a trade in Japan.
it would be interesting to see the written agreements the cbot has with the mm's on zg and zi. can the mm's remove the entire bid at will .. that sort of stuff. can someone shed light on the specific mm structure/responsibility for these two markets if there is one
i wasnt in zg last night but the zi rout a few months ago was pretty wicked, and a 15 point or so spike on zg seems outside the realm of price discovery, esp if no other mkts budged
i wasnt in zg last night but the zi rout a few months ago was pretty wicked, and a 15 point or so spike on zg seems outside the realm of price discovery, esp if no other mkts budged
if anything, it was the ameteur traders that got spanked today with this rundown. these things do and will occur in thinly traded electronic sessions primarily when nobody is watching. yes, it is a shitty thing to do but unfortunately, this is a greedy game. stop losses can't be used under these uninviting conditions.
Very interesting ethical concept: "A trade is a trade, no matter what". So should I conclude if a trade is a result of an illegal action (manipulation or even fraud) - it is still a valid trade ? And in case of a technical malfunction at the exchange or human error leading to erroneous market price information that is triggering false unintended trade executions for hundrerd of traders - these are still valid trades?
In contrast to this my understanding is that a trade is a mutual agreement, where both parties freely and voluntarily agree on the basis of a common understanding of clear unfalsified conditions and true statements. A unrealistic market price far away from fair-value in a thin overnight market is not providing the basics of unfalsified conditions and true statements ! A stop placed in any exchange traded instrument is placed under the implied condition that an execution should occur only when the market is trading at that price under regular fair market conditions and not on any artificial spike - that is what is beeing agreed with the placement of a stop order - and NOT : I want an execution if any screen shows any arbitrary price, no matter what !
If someone âgamesâ the market, as you call it, in a thin overnight market situation, its is not at all a commonly accepted market participation where you get rewarded for taking a risk but rather a legally sanctioned crime officially named market manipulation â not at all a gentlemenâs game. For the same reasons that a bank robber does not duly earn and deserve his haul just because he takes and accepts a risk, these trades are not valid.
And you seriously claim that if I place a stop order its MY fault getting caught in a stop cascade caused by manipulation or trade error ? You can just as well proclaim that if a person gets hit by a car on a pedestrian walkway, its that persons fault and not the driver's, no matter what, since if one wouldn't want to get hit there one shouldn´t walk there.
Finally, are you really suggesting, that if something absurd and unjust happens in a different country on a regular basis without being corrected we shouldn't further seek to prevent it here? This is where I clearly loose any understanding.
Indeed, I have a very different opinion of the characteristics of a free and fair market environment than you.
In contrast to this my understanding is that a trade is a mutual agreement, where both parties freely and voluntarily agree on the basis of a common understanding of clear unfalsified conditions and true statements. A unrealistic market price far away from fair-value in a thin overnight market is not providing the basics of unfalsified conditions and true statements ! A stop placed in any exchange traded instrument is placed under the implied condition that an execution should occur only when the market is trading at that price under regular fair market conditions and not on any artificial spike - that is what is beeing agreed with the placement of a stop order - and NOT : I want an execution if any screen shows any arbitrary price, no matter what !
If someone âgamesâ the market, as you call it, in a thin overnight market situation, its is not at all a commonly accepted market participation where you get rewarded for taking a risk but rather a legally sanctioned crime officially named market manipulation â not at all a gentlemenâs game. For the same reasons that a bank robber does not duly earn and deserve his haul just because he takes and accepts a risk, these trades are not valid.
And you seriously claim that if I place a stop order its MY fault getting caught in a stop cascade caused by manipulation or trade error ? You can just as well proclaim that if a person gets hit by a car on a pedestrian walkway, its that persons fault and not the driver's, no matter what, since if one wouldn't want to get hit there one shouldn´t walk there.
Finally, are you really suggesting, that if something absurd and unjust happens in a different country on a regular basis without being corrected we shouldn't further seek to prevent it here? This is where I clearly loose any understanding.
Indeed, I have a very different opinion of the characteristics of a free and fair market environment than you.
What makes you think locals are not trying to push prices around searching for stops during thin lunch time hours?
Is the job of market participants to push prices where it could facilitate trades. At that moment, someone need to get out 50 lots or whatever that number is, the market needs to go to where he could get out of that number of contracts.
Oh yes, why should anybody bother about these stupid few hundred ill-guided amateurs actually trusting that a US exchange would really make use of a published bust trade policy.
Its been that way, it will stay that way - no fair markets overnight. No, we don´t want to know about the other exchanges and markets that actually enforce fair trading. We will be consistent in ignoring it and hope that this virus of overnight controlled markets does not spread - just imagine, there were some rumours about trades actually being busted at some other places this year ! But ssssshhhh ! Fortunately we have personally no experience with this - hence we are professionals, you know. Just imagine these amateurs trading double digit number of markets overnight and regularly having to request trade busts - ridiculous !
Why should amateurs at all be allowed to trade if they cannot properly staff their own overnight trading operations ?
But wait, maybe itâs not a good idea if they go away - we got to profit from someone here. And yes, for this "greedy game" itâs better if we de-emphasize stop-loss orders and make them as unattractive as possible. This will serve our profitable market "gaming" schemes very well.
Many warm thanks and duly respect to these great professionals shining here with their brilliance and giving us valuable insight.
Here is a one minute candle chart, at 5:39 am, 936 CBOT zgz06 contracts sold, the contract hit a low of $604.00 on the nose. I wonder how many overnight longs got popped. The next bar shows 177 contracts bought. The last big spike in SP was up, then down in the direction of the trend, so you may have been ok if you were long. Gold just broke out of some major resistance at $615.00. This brings up the problem of stops. Even a well placed stop would have been blown out. My take, someone has got a mean streak. The market is always being bullied by volume traders, not sure what the solution is there, glad I wasn't holding any overnight position. I think if you did you may want to complain. Assuming it was one trader, you would have to have a pretty big account. I don't buy the cascading stops on this one.
PPT, Goldman, Rogue trader? Maybe Warren Buffet was bored.
PPT, Goldman, Rogue trader? Maybe Warren Buffet was bored.
interesting that $604 filled a gap on the hourly so to game a drop like that with limit buys at $604 seems a possibility......
anyone long in size from $575 would have had ammo to hammer it and then buy back in where the gap orders rested......
if you come to a knife fight, better bring a gun.....
anyone long in size from $575 would have had ammo to hammer it and then buy back in where the gap orders rested......
if you come to a knife fight, better bring a gun.....
if someone was long and got stopped out,yep i would be ticked.but these spikes are great opportunities also.
i am surprised the trades wern't adjusted,unless it was just one sell order and that "person" didnt care.
i am surprised the trades wern't adjusted,unless it was just one sell order and that "person" didnt care.