What do you do With Someone who just Doesn't
- Thread starter Flashboy
- Start date
The simple answer is that he doesn't trust his own rules -- if they provided such an edge that he was convinced over the long run that he would be profitable just by sticking with them, there'd be no reason for him to take chances or try anything else.
Take a second look at your rules, at your "edge" -- do they really provide the level of consistentcy you are looking for? Is it enough to say "only go long after a higher high and a lower high"? Are those parameters the real reason behind why a trade to the long side should be made -- or could it be just incidental? Obviously you've seen enough V-reversals off (what would eventually be confirmed as) session lows to tempt you to take these trades today, so could it be that your rules just don't make sense to you?
Flashboy:
Have you considered just letting the computer implement your trades? If your rule clearly says to take a long after a higher high and a lower high, that is relatively easy to code and have the program fire off the buy order when that condition is satisfied. Thereâll be no rule-breaking on your part as the computer will definitely follow your pre-programmed instructions. This may help alleviate some of the psychological âpressureâ.
Have you considered just letting the computer implement your trades? If your rule clearly says to take a long after a higher high and a lower high, that is relatively easy to code and have the program fire off the buy order when that condition is satisfied. Thereâll be no rule-breaking on your part as the computer will definitely follow your pre-programmed instructions. This may help alleviate some of the psychological âpressureâ.
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I don't think so. I think you could give him a proven strategy and he would break rules.
If it is as simple as no faith in his system...he should be so lucky...its easier to move to a different edge than discpline yourself.
So flashboy...why are you breaking your rules, when you know its hurting you?
I think Banjo nailed it perfectly.
The problem is clearly inside. You said in the first post you could not afford psychological help. Its sounds to me, given as long as you have struggled with this problem, that you cannot afford to not get some kind of help.
Like Banjo said we must address our inner 'monkees'.
Best of luck
In my experience I agree with that. I was wondering for the longest why my discipline sucked etc. Then I learned a simple tactic that I found if I did right worked well. This eliminated a lot of questions I had about psychology and discipline. It's now about getting rid of some previous bad habits and trying to have even more confidence in my plan.
I also find I have less expectation about a particular trade, because I know over a monthly performance if I keep doing it it's ok.
I also see I need to be sure the things I do trading fit in with my tendencies, and when my tendencies get in the way of good trading, I have to come up with blunt rules about what should I do to reduce those weaknesses and the damage they can cause.
See if you don't have clues about how you are feeling and reacting before you go off your discipline. Train yourself to stand up, for even just 10 secs, to force yourself to behave differently.
Agreed, there would be no reason for him to have faith in anything handed to him without having done the research himself. It's not just about whether the edge is valid or not, but also whether he understands how it works. The same goes for any trading "rules" that are in all the books on trading out there, we've all read the same bits of wisdom but to execute and understand takes experience, experimentation, repeated attempts and failures before we finally "get it".
I've recently posted a few blurbs on this topic from my own experience, it's my opinion that one should start with working on his method and making sure there is an edge to begin with before one starts looking for a shrink. I spent years trying to resolve the same problems flash seems to be having, and they were resolved only when I reached a proper understanding of what constitutes a real edge.
Flash,
I am gonna do this because of your dogged persistence. If you can keep your best setup as simple as possible (yet accurate) and you are not using lower than 5 minute time-frame, send me a complete descriptions. ONE STRATEGY ONLY! I will do my best to program it into TradeStation and test it with 3 year intraday YM data (assuming 10:1 point ratio to ES).
I suspect:
1) The problem is not your discipline. (Of course discipline is always THE other problem.)
2) If it is profitable, you might not have enough information as to how the strategy should behave over time and therefore try to "improve" and interfere with the process.
I will send you the TradeStation code, optimized values and the screen shots of the reports. After that you are pretty much on your own (maybe a few emails). You can then choose to automate your strategy to remove some of the emotions.
If you find it helpful then you can donate to either American Red Cross International Fund for Tsunami or ASPCA.
If your strategy is not profitable within reasons, would you let me post your equity curve on this thread for illustrative purpose so we can save some souls?
Everyone else I beg you NOT to send me your strategies.
I am gonna do this because of your dogged persistence. If you can keep your best setup as simple as possible (yet accurate) and you are not using lower than 5 minute time-frame, send me a complete descriptions. ONE STRATEGY ONLY! I will do my best to program it into TradeStation and test it with 3 year intraday YM data (assuming 10:1 point ratio to ES).
I suspect:
1) The problem is not your discipline. (Of course discipline is always THE other problem.)
2) If it is profitable, you might not have enough information as to how the strategy should behave over time and therefore try to "improve" and interfere with the process.
I will send you the TradeStation code, optimized values and the screen shots of the reports. After that you are pretty much on your own (maybe a few emails). You can then choose to automate your strategy to remove some of the emotions.
If you find it helpful then you can donate to either American Red Cross International Fund for Tsunami or ASPCA.
If your strategy is not profitable within reasons, would you let me post your equity curve on this thread for illustrative purpose so we can save some souls?
Everyone else I beg you NOT to send me your strategies.
Flashboy,
I've been there and done that. Very very painful process. Took me years to undo this bad habit of not following my rules. Even though I knew I should NOT go short I still went ahead and went short. Even though I knew Ishould NOT go long I went ahead and went long.
There were days I screamed and cried out loud,"WHY DID YOU NOT FOLLOW YOUR RULES??" It's the worst possible feeling.
And on big trend days like today, I would have been totally ruined! Wasted. Blasted into pieces.
Now, luckily, those things are becoming a distant memory. I actually went short and made money today and had a swing trade that I have been riding for a while and today it tanked like a rock.
I still need to work on my long side. But the long is getting better too. But I'm getting to be mentally flexible going long as I go short. It's a tough thing to discipline your mind like that. I've tried affirmations, hypnotist, trading books, magazines, etc.
I'm not sure what clicked. Then one day it clicked. But eventually it was too much pain to do the old wrong way. And I saw if I did opposite what I usually do, I would make a good chunk of money especially on a powerful trend day like today.
Wisdom rises on the ruins of follies...
Hope this helps. It's possible to change bad habits. BUt anything I say or anyone wouldn't sink in until you INTERNALIZE it. And really understand your trading habits - especially the bad and negative side of those habits.
good luck!
misctrader