Quote from BPtrader:
That's a whole new perspective. very insteresting.
Does it work?
Yes. A person's mind is built to facilitate being successful. It also has a deep inherent ability to rationally promote a person's survival.
Your question relates more to survival than success, as you see. Going through over 50 years of trading would not be a statement unless there was something to back up the experience and how the experience built something that was not inductive but instead deduxtive. This was a serious fork in the road and I was lucky to begin to build what turned out to be a differentiated mind by taking the correct fork.
Most people I have met and work with do begin to think critically and build from a foundation.
Most people who post in ET do not have this orientation. They are mostly in an imposed "survival mode" that centers of fight or flight, both of which are incoherent settings.
Learning to read and write and speak and listen are done when a person is a dependnet and surrounded by a system that supports growth.
Learning to read markets using a language is not done by people who are dependents and have a support sustem.
As you see in this thread, no learning of the market's language has happened, instead this thread is a discussion of survival and there is even a flavor of referring to "war" and its dictates. This is all incoherence oriented as in survival which involves fight or flight.
What makes what I suggested work is simply the departure from incoherence to coherence. What makes up coherence is social support, good diet, exercise, meditation and stress reduction.
A simple consideration of wherever a person is, is does he speak the language. If not, he is in foreign territory. This is disadvantageous in the five aspects just mentioned.
The solution for a person who is not a dependent, is to learn to learn in a coherent setting. The first step is understanding this chart
It is first because your first sentence mentions perspective which relates to perception.
Reading is 10% sensory and 90% inference. Inference is the first recourse of the mind from long term memory.
Does it work? Asks, if I can see, is it possible for me to read the market? Obviously if your mind is blank, still, you cannot read the market since there is no inference in your mind that is associated with the language of the market.
Loading up the mind may be done quickly as we all know from the most intense experience we have for building inference to succeed. This is faling in love with someone who is falling in love with you. A major addition of inference occurs. And the mind deploys a difficult process (LTD) to afford disconnecting a former inference in most cases.
At some point most potential traders fail. They want to win and winning is making money. This is foreign to learning it turns out.
To fast track learning to trade, it is more like falling in love with a new partner. It is very apparent that how this is done is by getting inimate be gaining understanding and doing what is best to forward the partnership.
Repetition is the name of the game. less romantic, drills are called for the make it possible for short term memory to become long term memory. (The synaptic connections of neuron to neuron is where the switch occurs. Lots and lots are added)
It is like learning to read or sing. A vocabulary or scale is built in the mind. This is differentiation and a language is built that is rational and of high utility.
You just found out you do not have any differentiation to have a language of the markets. You haven't done any reading drills to learn to read, either.
Pretend for a moment you are one of my critics (I have a few who are very instructive). They are undifferentiated in the language of the markets. They cannot read the markets or by now they would have said something about what they are reading.
If I trust the market, will it stop tricking me and reversing on me?
Trusting is the third step. You don't do the first two. The circle of forming a partnership makes a few demands that you are not involved with. Your question explains that you are not involved.
Think of a significant other. You know to accept what you are told. You listen to the "tells" and you accept them. This is step one and two of forming a circle around which laps may be taken.
Tell>>>>accept>>>>>..then in the circle it can contain trust.
Further around a circle, values of the tell and its acceptance is found. The value lead to more tells, etc.
1,000 laps under these conditions of partnering with a significant other, builds a lot of trust.
There is a truth about markets. "The market is always right". Above, the circle explains where this truth came from. It is a consequence of critical thinking and the use of logic.
There is a choice of taking data on the markets and building it up into something that helps make money (induction). There is also the alternative choice of deducing the language of the markets by learning to listen, accept, trust and value and, iteratively, get the language into your long term memory.
Scientists do the second and gamblers do the first.
Right now, your mind is set up for a few surprises: trickery and reversals. That is you are reading one thing and the market is not doing what you are reading. You simply have put some vocabulary and sentences in your mind permanently (long term) which happen to not be of any value (they are erroneous, in fact). Of course, you are unaware of this because your perception is faulty. Sensory (10%) + inference (90%) = Perception (100%). You are sensing the market, your mind supports this with inference which is erroneous and you perceive the market tracked you or reversed on you.
This is a lucky break for you in the way you are considering it. You see the tricks and reversals in the present (or just after) when you are sensing. You could check out 50 Camtasiaâs of the market and see when you are no longer tricked or reversed upon by doing enough repetitions to not be tricked anymore. By looking at the Camtasiaâs you are doing drills where you fast forward over and over to the place of the trick and reversal and you learn a new vocabulary that strangles the old vocabulary by fragmenting the synaptic connections (LTD).
For most people who have gotten to the place you are, it is difficult to bring the cure into play. I have available Camtasias for each day on CDâs and they display the screen set up properly. You may not have a good set up and you may not have available Camtasiaâs.
The alternative to being tricked and reversed upon is just âreadingâ the TELLS; accepting the tells (the market is always right); and letting trading time be a partnership with the market.
There is an order to learning to read the markets. It is the same as learning reading and learning addition and learning multiplication. You do not study Webster and his work and you do not study how a power series of a given base works. You build look up tables in your inference (long term memory).
How long it takes is dependent upon how your learning is supported. Becoming expert can take 30 days if it is done in a critical way. It is not rocket science and it does not take any formal education or talent to speak of. Most people will, advisedly, refute this statement, simply because of past decisions they have made, their poor experiences and how the family in which they grew up lived.
If not, how can I trust the market and treat it as a partner not an enemy?
the whole of the financial industry CW is based on winning and losing. That is where the well known OODA of Boyd came from and where all the psychological treatments of Steenbarger and his ilk of authors is founded upon. They do not understand that markets have a language and, therefore may be read.
Before computers and back when just telegraph and relays could be entrained to print tapes (ticker tapes, etc), the whole operation was based on a rather simple theorem of how the variables related. The theorem was two like kind hypothesis that formed a complete hypothesis set. The set had a simple parametric measure, velocity for the four compounds of the set.
The market is a huge pool of capital and itâs offer is extracted over time. If I want to drain my pool, I go to a value open it and switch on a pump. The valve is your account and its margin. The pump is your effectiveness and efficiency of reading the language. The switch is on all of the time to take water out of the pool.
You can see what quants do all day long. They look for imbalances in a pool. Call them waves or swells or tides. Does anyone think for a minute anything could happen from shagging waves. No they make money from shagging waves for other people who paid them to be pool boys.
In ES for the retail single account the values can be set to 10,000 contracts. Price change is the flow. Price is always changing and it has two sides as the telegraphed ticker tapes all said at the beginning of markets. Tape readers read the language of the markets.
There is no enemy. There is no fight or flight (incoherence).
What does exit is partnerships and trust. And the trader reads what the market tells and does a routine: Monitor, analysis; decision making and taking timely actions to extract the offer segment by segment.
What do u do to stick to your rules?
- Thread starter innovest_11
- Start date
My comment is simple
The business and profession of trading is relatively straightforward to learn. If you treat it as you would any business you will get where you want to go.
Learn the fundamentals first
Decide on a special area of interest
Get professional training
Study hard
Find the tools that give you the best odds of success
Observe your target market(s)
Develop a strategy
Test it
Refine it
Trade it with discipline
Protect your capital by learning to manage risk
Make adjustments when you see changes in your market
This is taken from my own training. It has served me pretty well and it might help others.
There is one final thing worth mentioning. When trading on behalf of my employer, taking a loss is no problem. If I lose on an individual trade, it is not my money, so there is no sense of urgency or personal loss. Also I know that others around me are ocasionally on the losing end of trades. It is a fact of our professional lives. When trading my own account however, I notice the difference. Psychologically it is harder to accept that the outcome of any individual trade (especially trading indexes) is random. I also notice that the more trades I execute the easier it is to manage the emotions that come with winning and losing.
I hope that helps someone out there.
Cheers
The business and profession of trading is relatively straightforward to learn. If you treat it as you would any business you will get where you want to go.
Learn the fundamentals first
Decide on a special area of interest
Get professional training
Study hard
Find the tools that give you the best odds of success
Observe your target market(s)
Develop a strategy
Test it
Refine it
Trade it with discipline
Protect your capital by learning to manage risk
Make adjustments when you see changes in your market
This is taken from my own training. It has served me pretty well and it might help others.
There is one final thing worth mentioning. When trading on behalf of my employer, taking a loss is no problem. If I lose on an individual trade, it is not my money, so there is no sense of urgency or personal loss. Also I know that others around me are ocasionally on the losing end of trades. It is a fact of our professional lives. When trading my own account however, I notice the difference. Psychologically it is harder to accept that the outcome of any individual trade (especially trading indexes) is random. I also notice that the more trades I execute the easier it is to manage the emotions that come with winning and losing.
I hope that helps someone out there.
Cheers
Here is the missing illustration of the post that derailed the discussion.
Daily use of MADA in real time was the theme of bootcamp
M meant annotating in real time thoroughly and logging the left half of one of a progression of six logs set up for beginner, advanced beginner, beginer internals, intermediate and advanced intermediate.
A meant filling in the middle of the log when the bar bay bar analysis was finished. A stands for Analysis.
Decisions were made bar by bar too. The decision column held one of five symbols and was done on a bar bay bar basis. H was the most common and R was the reversal,
Action that was recorded on the right of the log and noted on the PV chart as a reversal trade.
ON WEEKENDS THERE WAS SOME ACTIVITY RELATED TO CONSTRUCTING WHAT THE TRADER PERFORMED ON A FAMILY OF CURVES.
This was a drill too and at each level of accomplishment in skill and knowledge a new curve was added to the family of curves. There were six curves for trading SCT on those labelled six skill levels.
As was seen coherence was added to the trader/market partnership by using a measring device that did fourrier analysis on the cardiac system. Those using the laptop display of the emwave pc saw how coherence began to prevail.
Trading is a whole brain exercise. As you see this comment is not a whole brain comment.
Differentiating the mind, as in reading and singing, is a consequence of learning using the whole mind. Pick up any learner reading text and observe the proof.
By using a routine, MADA, and reaching closure on each row of the log all day long, the differntiated levels were established and made a first recourse in time. Initially the first recourse was the one exemplified by the post above which I am responding to.
Boot camp has been described as a 30 day event that uses a lot of camtasia videos where by a dya's trading can be accomplished in 40 minutes. regardless of level of skill.
SCT is not a set of rules. This is not clear to Tara or her prop husband (ex) both of whom are devoted to rules.
Automating SCT or any trading I would advocate stems from an algorithm or paradigm. the market dictated the algorithm's Hypothesis Set and it's parametric measure. It also dictated the priors of the algorithm and fortunatley all of Logic Theory and other theories associated with the design and utility of algorithms.
When a person embarks of transferring an algorithm to another it is a case of working in a process to differentiate the mind.
As it turns out, the process has some difficult things to consider. How the mind works and grows by building is one of these. Another is how a person learns to learn. Once these are in hand, then the process ensues on the basis of critical thinking and logic. All of that came to Neoxx. He and many others are now more formally continuing their worldwide meetings in person periodically and in btween communicating for an assortment of purposes related to the results of the transference and its implications and manifestations.
All who wished were free to choose. for most the bar they kept in front of them was too high to surmount and take the risk to learn to learn and build their minds. thier first recourse mentally, in terms of infernce joined with what they sensed did not compute. They elected out by their choices.
The most enjoyable of it all was and is turning the results into something that is useful to others in the world.
Many people observed the process over the five years that it went on in ET and for some they participated or observed in the many years before that. some people, four generations ago got to accept the transference and have continued to passit forward as well. what is most pervasive aqbout it all it what happens to the person who is passing it forward.
It is quite mysterious and not totally a conscious undertaking.
Those who were supporting the transfer have really enjoyed it all.
Footnote: Obviously, this has become unbelievable to observers.
I think I have it in a nutshell: there are no rules so the learners teach each other and the observers don't believe because of what they observe.
Different people read something and take a way different preceptions by their inference combining what they take in through their senses. Various people, thus lend various learning biases be they visual, audio or kinesthetic.
You believe (infer to anything you read) that rules are how a person does things, so learning rules is a good idea for you.
You learned to read and sing as a consequence of collecting rules for doing each apparently. A language resulted in each case because your mind got differentiated in some way.
The alternative for not using rules is not that people teacher each other. The alternative to learning rule sets is learning the language of the market in a manner that the mind becomes differentiated.
A consequence of learning the language of the market is that the differentiated learner knows that he knows what is going on all the time on the given skill level he has acquired.
A beginner knows he knows how channels progress, when their overlap begins and ends and thus the MADA works for him each lap of MADA done over and over as a channel progresses. His process is to build (annotate) tapes into traverses into channels in terms of the geometry of both price and volume. Thier correspondence is algorithmically established using a hypothesis set and its parametric measure (a single measure of velocity measured geometrically).
Six levels of skill further on,the expert has reapplied what the beginner practices, several times over with respect to traverses, tapes, internals, and the same techniques on another market, the Premium, the DOM and T&S combo, OTR tick charts in two markets and he knows the leader lagger relationship of all those subject panels. Many scripts and snippets are applied to the panels as well for sensory convenience.
A simple vocabulary was reapplied in a fractal context over about six fractals there exists an iteratively refined the trader's differentiated sensitivity to the time of events where all events are in relationship to one another. This is the definition of effectiveness and efficiency.
All traders have beliefs of what is possible for them and for their role models. It is easy to note these two marks on the continuum of performance of each trader and each role model representitive. There is another set of marks on the continuum: the marks of others who do different and unknown trading activiities.
Most people compare these outsiders to what they know and see as their goals. In your case it is clear what all of thse marks are on the continuum.
The final arbatreur of what is possible, most people do not use or are not aware of. The weekend drill of boot camp made the relationship of knowledge and skills to the market's offer very clear. there was a direct relationship and in the limit the standard was taking the market's offer.
Backtesting does not check the performance of what is being tested against it's ability to take the market's offer.
taking the market's offer is also tied to its capacity. The weekend drill was designed to test this capacity limit as well. For example, in ES it is 10,000 contracts per account.
Observers have beliefs and they are not subject to change unless certain standards or limits are met. Nothing outside of observer beliefs can be true to an observer. This is cut and dry, no exceptions. The position of people who do what others (observers) deem to be impossible (beyond their established beliefs) is that there is no way discourse can change their views.
The consequence of this is that the phenomena has value for decision making by users of the method. Users cannot work with anyone whose beliefs close out the opportunity to learn.
Trader666 is an example of a person who cannot prove to himself by using roughtrader's results that the two document editions (the original 22JUN06 and the second, 10OCT06) of "Putting the Pieces Together" are a proof of both 1 or 2 order(s) of magnitude profits within a single time span (100days). roughtrader did not have to be at those two IBD meetings, he only had to deploy their principles.
You and trader666 filter yourselves away from working with practitioners. Just as Steven could not "buy" his way into the Tucson activities.
From my viepoint when nutshelling, it turns out this way:
Knowing that you know with regard to market operations may not be done, logically using rules. Therefore, a suitable alternative is learning the laguage of the market by completing a purposeful learning process (like learning to read) which builds the mind's long term memory by differentiation). Those who observe the process and its results will always measure whether it works or is valid by their belief standards composed of their preformance and that of their role models. It will be deemed unbelievable and impossible as a consequence of this outside test.
It is the nature of communities to protect those who are joining the community. Many people who find what others are doing to be unbelievable and impossible, protect these newcomers from making the mistake of considing what they know and believe cannot be happening. They encourage newcomers to join with them and have the same beliefs founded on the tests they performed.
In future years, a lot will change. we spent five years in this forum introducing an algorthm or paradigm on what we call "pool extraction" and it applied to three types of capital application in various markets. I attached a schematic of how the pools are extracted and swept using various methods. the descriptors may be a little criptic but they are ordered the same way for each approach.
EpiphanyTrading
ET Sponsor
To stick to your rules, you need to have a sounding board to voice your ideas before you push a button. When you announce your trades to a friend or a chat room, you will get the feedback that will let you know if you are doing the wrong thing. We have a seven criteria list that we used called the Epiphany Method. If the trade has one of the criteria it is a do nothing. If it has all seven, it is a do with SIZE
I would never trade alone. I have my partner Erik Kolodny across from me along with our chat room on my screen.
Brendan P. Byrne
I would never trade alone. I have my partner Erik Kolodny across from me along with our chat room on my screen.
Brendan P. Byrne
1)My background is as a creative choreographer. Creativity and rules are left and right brain activities that hamper each other. This confuses you and that's why you can't show any results. You think you are freeing traders minds but instead you imprison them. You should try reading the posts in IR to see how even basic level rules without demonstrations stall a traders progress. 2000+ IR pages and nothing to show speaks for itself.
2)âThis is the definition of effectiveness and efficiencyâ. Nonsense! Jack the definition of efficiency is âthe ratio of the output to the input of any systemâ. SCT only shows a theoretical output and the burden of proof is always on the claimant. You claim to have some scientific background or knowledge but Jack, you continually present a theory with staggeringly limited results as something exceptional. Any scientist would never present a theory as proof of anything.
3)Jack, you've never traded size, and it shows
4)Name some practitioners. You certainly are not one of them. Tell me their names and I'll filter my way towards them. Perhaps you are right and I am wrong and I'll willingly admit to that as soon as I see the results from one of these SC Theory practitioners.
This is a discussion about how to stick to rules. My question was, are bad rules the cause of poor discipline? Is it a mindgame?
I am using your SC Theory as an example of how rules can stifle a trader because what you believe will result in success, might be nothing more than a theory that is the cause of your failure.
Thanks for proving my point
