What About Satan!

Quote from LiverNoMore:

When you assume, you make an ass of u and me.
You are making assumptions about what atheists assume. We do not read Plato's or Marx's statements about the political function of religion and then extract from that that there must be no god. It is from disbelief in the whole notion of god that the notion of religion appears to be a ridiculous pursuit.

Marketsurfer already stated in one of the other dozen god/no-god threads heading the Chit Chat threads the difference between (western) religion and science: religion accepts without proof, science rejects without proof. The atheist viewpoint is by that definition not a religion, but a science.

Anyhow, why are we missing a large part of our existence by not believing in a creator? Do things need to believe in their creators to fulfill their nature? If I create, let's say, a table, does that table need to know or care that I created it? No! Is it any less a table, or any less a tribute to my work for lacking belief in my existence?

Your creator created not just humans, but all things, living and non-living. All of them go about their existence without fretting over who, what, created them, and why. Except for non-atheist humans. Personally, I think people who worry about believing in a creator are missing part of their existence: every moment they waste worrying about these questions is a moment they could have been spending going about living their lives.

In fact, if I created a table, wouldn't I be disappointed in my creation if it wasted its time fussing about who or what created it, and arguing about this with other tables, rather than just forgetting about all that and simply performing its function as a table?
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There are several other "religions" masked as science, so your attempt to twist the fact that you simply don't BELEIVE that there is a God as been done before.

BTW, you say that science rejects without proof, what then, is an axiom???

Nice try though:D
 
Quote from marketsurfer:

i innately KNOW that there was/ is intelligent design in creation. how i know this, i am not sure. the mind and heart are different aspects of us--- acceptance without proof is the primary characteristic of western religion. rejection without proof is the fundamental characteristic of western science. heart v. mind.
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This is the quote that I was referring to.

What is an axiom? Something that Washington used to cut down a cherry treeom.

If you want to believe any silly thing you want, that's your business, you're welcome to it. But me saying that I will not accept the truth of something that cannot be proved to me does not automatically class my viewpoint as a religion.

Someone could say they believe in the existence of magical flying unicorns. Then I say that I disbelieve in the existence of magical flying unicorns. Then that person can say that since I can't prove that there aren't magical flying unicorns, my disbelief constitutes a belief which therefore constitutes a religion. That's essentially the tactic you are taking by calling atheism a religion.

p.s. these magical flying unicorns are invisible (part of their magic). That's why I can't see them. My inability to see them therefore actually serves as proof of their existence! :eek:
 
Quote from LiverNoMore:

This is the quote that I was referring to.

What is an axiom? Something that Washington used to cut down a cherry treeom.

If you want to believe any silly thing you want, that's your business, you're welcome to it. But me saying that I will not accept the truth of something that cannot be proved to me does not automatically class my viewpoint as a religion.

Someone could say they believe in the existence of magical flying unicorns. Then I say that I disbelieve in the existence of magical flying unicorns. Then that person can say that since I can't prove that there aren't magical flying unicorns, my disbelief constitutes a belief which therefore constitutes a religion. That's essentially the tactic you are taking by calling atheism a religion.

p.s. these magical flying unicorns are invisible (part of their magic). That's why I can't see them. My inability to see them therefore actually serves as proof of their existence! :eek:
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Unicorns are not responsible for your creation and the inherent order of the universe, God is.

Therein lies the difference.
 
How do you know god is not a unicorn? An invisible flying magical unicorn that is responsible for your creation and the inherent order of the universe.
 
Quote from LiverNoMore:

How do you know god is not a unicorn? An invisible flying magical unicorn that is responsible for your creation and the inherent order of the universe.
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Well, it might be, for all I know.

There is an engineer to this universe. Whether we call it Uni, or God, or Allah, or Olodumare, or Amen-Ra, or any of the thousands of other names the creator has from culture to culture is really not relevant to the fact that the engineer is self evident in the work that the engineer is doing.

Now if you cannot see this, it is either a function of youth, or a lack of serious contemplation, both are correctable over time.:)
 
Quote from oddiduro:

There is an engineer to this universe. Whether we call it Uni, or God, or Allah, or Olodumare, or Amen-Ra, or any of the thousands of other names the creator has from culture to culture is really not relevant to the fact that the engineer is self evident in the work that the engineer is doing.

Now if you cannot see this, it is either a function of youth, or a lack of serious contemplation, both are correctable over time.:)
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how do you KNOW there is an engineer? who is the engineer's engineer?
 
Quote from oddiduro:

There is an engineer to this universe. Whether we call it Uni, or God, or any of the thousands of other names the creator has from culture to culture is really not relevant to the fact that the engineer is self evident in the work that the engineer is doing.
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Well, you've been debating with me because you bristle at the notion of atheism, while claiming to accept agnosticism as reasonably acceptable.

I used to call myself agnostic. That implied that "I don't know the answer, don't think the answer is knowable". I have changed as I get older to calling myself an atheist. This is to imply that I don't think the whole question is really worth wasting any of my time or energy on wondering about as so many millions (possibly billions) of us seem to spend our lives doing.

What I do fervently believe, and for this belief you may call me religious and maybe we can come up with a name for that religion which we can both agree on*, that if there is a Creator of any sort to this universe and everything in it, the issue of whether human beings believe in that Creator ("engineer") has no significance or worth to that creator's existence. Human belief in a creator or engineer has no bearing on its existence, that creator couldn't care less if we believe in it, and if it did take a Conscious view of us little human thingies on this little earth-ball and concern itself with us right down to our thought processes and belief systems, that the Creator would be utterly disappointed in us for wasting our lives and minds in this manner. In the same way I suggested that I would be disappointed if I created a table and found that table wasting its existence worrying about believing in me. As the engineer of that table, my existence would be evident in the table itself. Self-evident, and also irrelevent, except in the rare circumstance where someone decided they might want to buy another table of the same quality.

As the engineer of the table, my pride is in seeing the table be the best table it can possibly be. So I believe that any Creator would derive any personal pride (if it had personality and pride) in us from seeing us be the best human beings we can be, and not from whether we spend our existences kneeling down mumbling dead-language gibberish and raising our eyes toward outer space and making personal requests to It for "please make mummy well again" or "please bless our army's military exploits" or "please let me win the lottery".

*perhaps we could call this religion simply Atheism. As long as we make it clear that I am implying by calling myself Atheist (with a capital A) this philosophy, I will gladly assume the label of Atheist and claim this to be my Religion. I would even gladly create an Atheist Church where others who share this belief or would like to lend an open ear to it would be able to congregate and discuss the principles of Atheism.

I bet even Agnostics would be open to attending our services and giving an open ear to our philosophies and sermons.
 
Quote from oddiduro:



Well, it might be, for all I know.

There is an engineer to this universe. Whether we call it Uni, or God, or Allah, or Olodumare, or Amen-Ra, or any of the thousands of other names the creator has from culture to culture is really not relevant to the fact that the engineer is self evident in the work that the engineer is doing.

Now if you cannot see this, it is either a function of youth, or a lack of serious contemplation, both are correctable over time.:)
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no engineer. no conductor. no driver. no big brother. just your lonely butt in a cold cold unee verse. :-/
 
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