Well Well Well So Were Do We Go From Here

Quote from Hels_02

.... Bush et al have made a mockery of the Republican Party.

That's rather prophetic, and quite true in my opinion. Where is the party of fiscal conservatism and mainstrem values that once was known as the Republican party?
In an odd sort of way the democrats seem more republican then ever, and the Republicans, well what's the right word? : radical, nuts, extreme, fundamentalist? There are a lot of former republicans who feel very much abandoned by their party right now.
 
Quote from hels02:

When I look back over the Clinton Presidency, because hindsight is always 20/20, I think about how right on she was about a national health care program.
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If you think its bad now, wait until the government takes over the program and makes it 10X worse. You are seriously drinking the kool aid if you think the US government could run a better healthcare system.

Welcome to 6 month waiting lists to see a doc.

My healthcare is great, thank you very much, and it blows away anything they have in canada, and believe me, I have compared with my canadian co-workers back when I was still working fulltime.
 
Quote from piezoe:

Quote from Hels_02

.... Bush et al have made a mockery of the Republican Party.

That's rather prophetic, and quite true in my opinion. Where is the party of fiscal conservatism and mainstrem values that once was known as the Republican party?
In an odd sort of way the democrats seem more republican then ever, and the Republicans, well what's the right word? : radical, nuts, extreme, fundamentalist? There are a lot of former republicans who feel very much abandoned by their party right now.
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Exactly, Piezoe. Fiscal conservatism is what I expected, not billions in war debt, trillions added to our deficit, the average tax cut to the top 1% of $143,000 (Warren Buffet even mocked this by saying that he didn't need it, why's Bush giving him the money), giving tax cuts to US corporations who created Bermuda corporations to dodge US taxes and wholesale tax cuts to those who outsourced US jobs.

And there were no excuses either... at ANY time Bush could have presented a budget that gave tax breaks to every corporation who hired american instead of outsourcing. All these 'new jobs' for his bogus unemployment figures were low paying jobs, no wonder the hue and cry over raising minimum wage, you have PhD's working for minimum wage at Best Buys. Because they're not on unemployment, we have a low unemployment rate.

We let a man who ran his own company into the dirt submit the budget for our entire nation, and then wonder why our economy isn't better, why we can't compete with other nations, and why we may be facing a recession. Gee.

And I agree, Democrats today are MORE Republican than Republicans are. I hope this big slap in the face from the election teaches them something before 2008.
 
Quote from traderdragon2:

If you think its bad now, wait until the government takes over the program and makes it 10X worse. You are seriously drinking the kool aid if you think the US government could run a better healthcare system.

Welcome to 6 month waiting lists to see a doc.

My healthcare is great, thank you very much, and it blows away anything they have in canada, and believe me, I have compared with my canadian co-workers back when I was still working fulltime.
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I had good medical care in the UK back in the early 90's. I thought rather highly of it. You could also go and buy services in the private sector if you wanted.

What are there 6 month waiting lists for in Canada?
 
Quote from traderdragon2:

If you think its bad now, wait until the government takes over the program and makes it 10X worse. You are seriously drinking the kool aid if you think the US government could run a better healthcare system.

Welcome to 6 month waiting lists to see a doc.

My healthcare is great, thank you very much, and it blows away anything they have in canada, and believe me, I have compared with my canadian co-workers back when I was still working fulltime.
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The ONLY reason your healthcare is so great compared to Canada and other nationalized health care programs is because our unregulated health care sucks the enterprising doctors out of their system into ours to try to make the big bucks in private practice.

THEN, those doctors don't really make big bucks because malpractice insurance sucks 1/2 their gross right off the top of their balance sheets, but here they are.

For that lure of private practice, we can steal doctors from every nation, leaving nations like Canada short of available doctors, it's a short drive across the border. THAT's why there's a 6 month wait, we stole their doctors.

If we had nationalized health care, we wouldn't have to wait 6 months for a doctor, because there's NO WHERE ELSE for the doctors to go to make more money.

Use your brain for a moment and compare the annual salary for a PhD professor at the average University, one with arguably MORE education than a family doctor and compare it to what the average doctor in the US makes.

Even in the medical profession, you have the 'stars' and everyone else. The 'stars' who make millions a year are the incentive for Canadian and European doctors to come here, but once here, they get to work for clinics or groups because they aren't stars. In the meantime, our insurance and their insurance companies make all the money.

Nationalized health care would do away with that, making health care affordable to all, and our tax burden would drop because we wouldn't have such a hefty Medicare and Medicaid bill.

It's ok that you don't see it, because I was stupid and didn't see it either when Hillary tried to enact it. THAT's why it's hindsight.
 
Ask a US military dependant how they enjoy socialized medicine. US military has to fall under this system for obvious reasons, but it is a pain in the ass (slow, ineffiecient) for soldier and dependant in a non-combat zone.
 
RS, I am quite familiar with Adam Smith. I also used to be quite a fan of Ayn Rand and her seminal, but boring as hell book, 'Atlas Shrugged'. And it's all very logical. I am not a socialist or a communist, nor do I advocate either. They don't work, you cannot expect everyone to work equally hard and earn equal treatment or rewards, at the risk of stymying innovation.

There's a flip side to this however. So rather than put it to you as a statement, how about you let me know what you think of this scenerio.

You live in a town that has only 1 factory and place of employment. You have never left this town, and have no means of traveling elsewhere to find work. From everything you have read and heard, it's even worse elsewhere. This factory employs everyone who's employed in town, and in order to live you have to work there. There are no regulations for employment, the factory can pay whatever it likes.

You make widgets all day long. Your widgets sell for $1, but you are paid $.10. You don't have a choice, and if you don't work there, there is no where else for you to go because you cannot save enough to leave.

However, what you earn for widgets does not earn you enough to pay for medical care, food and housing, let alone clothes or transportation.

You cannot make widgets on your own, neither you nor the other factory workers can afford the machinery to make the widgets, and as no one has any savings who works there, you are at the mercy of the factory owner, who every year makes increasing profits because your widgets make him a lot of money.

What would you do?
 
Id start a small business. You paint a fictional picture where not a single soul can come up with a single idea that will make him money outside of working at the crap factory.

Well guess what, once upon a time, there was no factory. How did IT get started?? Hmmmm????

This is the typical, grass is greener on the others side stick. Is private healthcare perfect? No. But dont let Clinton fool you into thinking that socialized medicine is better by rubbing salt into the wounds of private healthcare problems.

At least private healthcare has wounds. Socialized healthcare is a corpse! Rubbing salt into its wounds does nothing :p



Quote from hels02:

RS, I am quite familiar with Adam Smith. I also used to be quite a fan of Ayn Rand and her seminal, but boring as hell book, 'Atlas Shrugged'. And it's all very logical. I am not a socialist or a communist, nor do I advocate either. They don't work, you cannot expect everyone to work equally hard and earn equal treatment or rewards, at the risk of stymying innovation.

There's a flip side to this however. So rather than put it to you as a statement, how about you let me know what you think of this scenerio.

You live in a town that has only 1 factory and place of employment. You have never left this town, and have no means of traveling elsewhere to find work. From everything you have read and heard, it's even worse elsewhere. This factory employs everyone who's employed in town, and in order to live you have to work there. There are no regulations for employment, the factory can pay whatever it likes.

You make widgets all day long. Your widgets sell for $1, but you are paid $.10. You don't have a choice, and if you don't work there, there is no where else for you to go because you cannot save enough to leave.

However, what you earn for widgets does not earn you enough to pay for medical care, food and housing, let alone clothes or transportation.

You cannot make widgets on your own, neither you nor the other factory workers can afford the machinery to make the widgets, and as no one has any savings who works there, you are at the mercy of the factory owner, who every year makes increasing profits because your widgets make him a lot of money.

What would you do?
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