Wednesday Night Republican Debate

[Cache Landing]

Quote from achilles28:

Are they evil, or what?

Serious.

Every single thing Ron says about the Fed is right.

First off, not everything RP says is correct. There were very good reasons for dropping the gold-standard. Theories always work but RP has never been responsible for turning those theories into successful realities. Once theories begin implementation in the real economy, it usually turns out that they are quite flawed and very difficult to implement.

Secondly, abolishing the FED wouldn't stop war or borrowing. The FED isn't the cause of borrowing. We would be just as able to borrow from China without the FED even existing.

Many times, wars aren't an issue of money, but rather an issue of power. The FED has nothing to do with this. With free-market globalization comes wealth/power imbalance. Wars attempt to either widen the gap or narrow the gap. But also with this globalization comes advancement and even the poorest see a substantial increase in standard of living.

 

[ratboy88]

Quote from Cache Landing:

First off, not everything RP says is correct. There were very good reasons for dropping the gold-standard. Theories always work but RP has never been responsible for turning those theories into successful realities. Once theories begin implementation in the real economy, it usually turns out that they are quite flawed and very difficult to implement.

Secondly, abolishing the FED wouldn't stop war or borrowing. The FED isn't the cause of borrowing. We would be just as able to borrow from China without the FED even existing.

Many times, wars aren't an issue of money, but rather an issue of power. The FED has nothing to do with this. With free-market globalization comes wealth/power imbalance. Wars attempt to either widen the gap or narrow the gap. But also with this globalization comes advancement and even the poorest see a substantial increase in standard of living.

you don't even realize it but you just proved all of Ron Paul's points.

 

[ratboy88]

Quote from Cache Landing:


Romney's smug grin is because he thinks RP is a kook with only congressional experience. Never having been held responsible to implement those ideas in the real economy. He understands what RP is saying, but knows that in the real world the problem is much more complex than that.

Besides that, I'm getting less and less inclined to lump Mitt in with "The Establishment". Right now his entire problem is that it is him against the establishment.

mitt is cfr... his dad was an oligarch puppet. mitt has no clue about whether ron paul's policies would work or not. mitt is too busy worrying about bin laden and the tora bora bunker(talk about a sucker):

 

[achilles28]

Quote from Cache Landing:

First off, not everything RP says is correct. There were very good reasons for dropping the gold-standard. Theories always work but RP has never been responsible for turning those theories into successful realities. Once theories begin implementation in the real economy, it usually turns out that they are quite flawed and very difficult to implement.

Secondly, abolishing the FED wouldn't stop war or borrowing. The FED isn't the cause of borrowing. We would be just as able to borrow from China without the FED even existing.

Many times, wars aren't an issue of money, but rather an issue of power. The FED has nothing to do with this. With free-market globalization comes wealth/power imbalance. Wars attempt to either widen the gap or narrow the gap. But also with this globalization comes advancement and even the poorest see a substantial increase in standard of living.

Ron was right about the Fed.

The Gold Standard works. Fixed exchange rates dont (Countries "cheat").

The media and historians lumped the two together (Gold Standard and Fixed Exchange Rates) to tarnish the possibility of ever returning to it.

Nixon got the Country off the gold standard to pay for Vietnam. We simply didn't have enough gold at the fixed ratio to pay for it.

What happened to inflation then? Through the rough. And thousands of Americans coming home in body bags.

Thats why free money is a bad idea. The military industrial complex gets a whiff and lobbys the shit out of Congress to throw our boys infront of bullets. Its good for the bottom line.

Foreign borrowing is a moot point when theres no income tax to pay the interest on those bonds.

Reagans Grace Commission found that every single dollar of income tax was used to pay INTEREST on the national debt - owned by foreigners or the FED.

Thats why Ron proposes to get rid of BOTH. Its up to the States and Municipalities how to raise money to fight a war, if they want. But a daunting prospect.

With Income Tax gone, there is no debt floating. Who pays the interest on all that debt when the obligations on the Countrys citizens cease to exist?

See? Its just ponzi scheme. We rape you on you're livelihood to pay for Wars that gets funneled to our Corporate cronies.

As far as Globalism is great. No, its not.

Globalism is Corporate sloth painted as equality to avoid making R&D investment at home.

Globalism and the flight of our industrial base will make this upcoming recession especially severe.

 

[achilles28]

Quote from Cache Landing:


Secondly, abolishing the FED wouldn't stop war or borrowing. The FED isn't the cause of borrowing. We would be just as able to borrow from China without the FED even existing.

BTW, the Fed IS the cause of borrowing.

And so is its Ugly Step Sister, the Income Tax.

The two go hand-in-hand.

No income tax equals no Federal Debt Auctions because theres no interest, or very little, to pay interest on those bonds.

The rest of it, fiat money created out of thin air, is gone.

Correct me if im wrong, but some 30% of all US Debt is purchased by the Fed.

 

[Cache Landing]

Quote from achilles28:

BTW, the Fed IS the cause of borrowing.

And so is its Ugly Step Sister, the Income Tax.

The two go hand-in-hand.

No income tax equals no Federal Debt Auctions because theres no interest, or very little, to pay interest on those bonds.

The rest of it, fiat money created out of thin air, is gone.

Correct me if im wrong, but some 30% of all US Debt is purchased by the Fed.

No, the Fed is an easy vehicle for borrowing. NOT the CAUSE of it.

If I need resources to start or complete a project I'm working on, the bank is an easy vehicle for borrowing the necessary resources. The bank isn't the cause of my borrowing. If the bank didn't exist I would still need to borrow, and there would still be ways to borrow.

You're confusing the vehicle with the cause. Another way to say your statement above is, "some 70% of US debt is NOT purchased by the Fed".

If I cut myself, I will bleed. That is not to say that the knife was the cause of the bleeding, but rather an easy means of achieving it. The cause of the bleeding is my bodies necessity of healing itself. The blood is required to do so.

 

[Cache Landing]

Quote from ratboy88:

mitt is cfr... his dad was an oligarch puppet. mitt has no clue about whether ron paul's policies would work or not. mitt is too busy worrying about bin laden and the tora bora bunker(talk about a sucker):

Mitt is a successful version of most on these threads. Someone who didn't remain anonymous on "elite" investing threads so that nobody could see his lack of success. To say that he doesn't understand finance and economics in the real world is absurd, and very indicative of blind stereotyping and prejudice.

 

[achilles28]

Quote from Cache Landing:

No, the Fed is an easy vehicle for borrowing. NOT the CAUSE of it.

If I need resources to start or complete a project I'm working on, the bank is an easy vehicle for borrowing the necessary resources. The bank isn't the cause of my borrowing. If the bank didn't exist I would still need to borrow, and there would still be ways to borrow.

You're confusing the vehicle with the cause. Another way to say your statement above is, "some 70% of US debt is NOT purchased by the Fed".

Again, you missed the point.

The Fed COMBINED with the Income Tax is the cause of blank check lobbying efforts.

Using your example above, if no one will lend to you, the "project" gets mothballed.

The Income Tax and the Fed is one side of the same coin.

The Fed and Income Tax were passed in the SAME YEAR.

Thats how it works. Fiat money creation without removing money creates unsustainable inflation.

Our income tax pays the interest on ALL Federal Debt.

Take away the Income Tax and the Fed and the US Government has nowhere to finance its wars except from Citizens.

Capice?

 

[sumosam]

Quote from achilles28:

Are they evil, or what?

Serious.

Every single thing Ron says about the Fed is right.

The entire military industrial lobby - with all their wars and national security apparatia - would disappear overnight if the Fed was mothballed.

The Fed is THE Blank Check that makes lobbying congress a profitable endeavor.

No free money equals no war. No war equals no lobbying by war profiteers. And so on.

Without the Fed, wars are financed by bonds - largely bought by the public.

Can you imagine that? Control over the Countrys war-making power back in the hands of the People to Whom It Belongs?

Congress doesn't like that. No fucking way. This Country is run by the elite for the elite.

What happens next? Corporate Facism. We're already well on our way. Perpetual war for perpetual peace. A national surveillance grid while the Government circles the wagons. Corporations now write the laws that Congress never reads. A North American Union foisted upon us in total stealth.

God help us if a nuke goes off in LA or small pox breaks quaranteen.

The legal infrastructure is already in place to turn this country into a Dictatorship overnight, with absolutely no Constitutional guarantee of anything. Citizens thrown down the memory hole at the Presidents sole discreation of who is and isn't an "enemy combatant".

Thats what us Patriots have to look forward to.

Anyone who questions the Government is now a traitor. The Constitution is the enemy and our loyalties are to the Officials and Federals that run our lives. Not the principles this Country was founded on.

No - the Founding Ideas are dangerous now in this Global War on Terror. Freedom is the enemy and anyone who doesn't submit to full Federal control is suspect and a threat to us all. Security is Freedom. Theres an enemy at every gate. Trust no one.

War is Peace. Government is Security.

THIS IS FASCISM.


Fascism

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Frankly, I was surprised that the republicans even mentionned the constitution, or were concerned about following it. This was total retorick!

I am also pleasantly surprised that ron Paul was allowed to speak....but boy, did they ever ignore him on most of the questions!

 

[Cache Landing]

Quote from achilles28:

Ron was right about the Fed.

The Gold Standard works. Fixed exchange rates dont (Countries "cheat").

The media and historians lumped the two together (Gold Standard and Fixed Exchange Rates) to tarnish the possibility of ever returning to it.

Nixon got the Country off the gold standard to pay for Vietnam. We simply didn't have enough gold at the fixed ratio to pay for it.

What happened to inflation then? Through the rough. And thousands of Americans coming home in body bags.

Thats why free money is a bad idea. The military industrial complex gets a whiff and lobbys the shit out of Congress to throw our boys infront of bullets. Its good for the bottom line.

Foreign borrowing is a moot point when theres no income tax to pay the interest on those bonds.

Reagans Grace Commission found that every single dollar of income tax was used to pay INTEREST on the national debt - owned by foreigners or the FED.

Thats why Ron proposes to get rid of BOTH. Its up to the States and Municipalities how to raise money to fight a war, if they want. But a daunting prospect.

With Income Tax gone, there is no debt floating. Who pays the interest on all that debt when the obligations on the Countrys citizens cease to exist?

See? Its just ponzi scheme. We rape you on you're livelihood to pay for Wars that gets funneled to our Corporate cronies.

As far as Globalism is great. No, its not.

Globalism is Corporate sloth painted as equality to avoid making R&D investment at home.

Globalism and the flight of our industrial base will make this upcoming recession especially severe.

Money is money. Money that is freely printed simply causes inflation. Money can be whatever a group of people wish to assign value to. Gold has a few inherent characteristics that result in easy use as currency, but not by any means perfect for currency.

Paper money reduces friction in trade and allows for faster expansion. I don't agree with how we are currently creating money out of thin air, but I also don't think we should go back to the gold standard. Gold is only as valuable as everyone says it is. Driven by supply and demand. If every dollar we have in circulation is backed by a specific quantity of gold, and that gold suddenly drops in value, must we immediately remove a certain number of dollars from circulation?

What if the drop in value is something like 50% in a very short period of time?

The idea that trade makes everyone better off is so well proven as to be beyond debate. Even if the rich gain wealth faster than the poor, the standard of living of the poor still increases.

Your statement about globalism making our recession more severe is great. Anti-globalism caused the great depression. Our companies moving overseas is a result of our government placing so many restrictions on them that it makes more sense to move elsewhere. Again, globalism isn't the cause of the recession. Rather a byproduct.