Perhaps. So I'm happy to be engaged in a dialogue with an artist. Perhaps you can pick a piece you like in particular and present it for us? Give us a brief commentary of what you message?
Wall Street Art...
- Thread starter Sequoia
- Start date
Well, sure.
For example, the 7 sins of capital ?
That series was made in 2008-2009 during the subprime / credit crisis. I adapted the Seven Capital Sins and chose 7 portrait of finance men who held a responsibility in the financial mess we got in and attributed to each of them a capital sin. The background is illustrated with a digitized negative version of the sins by 16th century engraver Nicolas le Rouge.
The Maslow Board of Trade is a multimedia piece which was made as a response to the hunger riots which took place in 2008 when there were some droughts and a lower production of cereals in the world, impacting poor populations. Of course, low supply and high demand is an open road to speculation. I speculated on a hypothetic future where human needs/rights would be commodities and traded on markets just like grain or oil...
http://www.maslowboardoftrade.com
Again, not trying to convince you of anything. Just saying that I am trying to include reflexion in my artpieces. I am not making pieces denouncing finance or trading but I am trying to show that "Finance without Conscience is but the ruin of the soul", to paraphrase Descartes.
The Gordon Gekko pieces of course are mere "pop culture" iconic pieces and do not pretend to be anything else with no specific idea behind (even if one can wonder if Gekko is an apologetic figure of Finance or on the contrary a caricatural figure as Oliver Stone wanted it to be).
On my side, I would appreciate if you could share emerging artists you like as you mentioned. I am always very curious to discover new artists.
For example, the 7 sins of capital ?
That series was made in 2008-2009 during the subprime / credit crisis. I adapted the Seven Capital Sins and chose 7 portrait of finance men who held a responsibility in the financial mess we got in and attributed to each of them a capital sin. The background is illustrated with a digitized negative version of the sins by 16th century engraver Nicolas le Rouge.
The Maslow Board of Trade is a multimedia piece which was made as a response to the hunger riots which took place in 2008 when there were some droughts and a lower production of cereals in the world, impacting poor populations. Of course, low supply and high demand is an open road to speculation. I speculated on a hypothetic future where human needs/rights would be commodities and traded on markets just like grain or oil...
http://www.maslowboardoftrade.com
Again, not trying to convince you of anything. Just saying that I am trying to include reflexion in my artpieces. I am not making pieces denouncing finance or trading but I am trying to show that "Finance without Conscience is but the ruin of the soul", to paraphrase Descartes.
The Gordon Gekko pieces of course are mere "pop culture" iconic pieces and do not pretend to be anything else with no specific idea behind (even if one can wonder if Gekko is an apologetic figure of Finance or on the contrary a caricatural figure as Oliver Stone wanted it to be).
On my side, I would appreciate if you could share emerging artists you like as you mentioned. I am always very curious to discover new artists.
First, thanks for continuing this conversation.
Let's start with the 7 sins of capital: first, it's overtly political. Of course, politics in art is not in itself wrong or new - but there's a gradient: is this more art than politics, or more politics than art? My view is that it's the latter. One either agrees or disagrees with your thesis that these men are guilty of these sins and are responsible for the financial crisis. If one disagrees, then your piece neither convinces nor juxtaposes. Let's stay on that last thought: you juxtapose the capital sins with the catholic sins - but the juxtaposition doesn't work because they are neither one-to-one (is Madoff really lust? as oppose to envy, or greed?), nor particularly illuminating (aren't we all guilty of these sins? aren't we all responsible? .... hum - that would be an interesting subject, I think).
In the final analysis, I think my major issue with this set is that it doesn't elevate above being mere rhetoric.
The Maslow Board of Trade is must more interesting. I think it's quite good. I clearly disagree with your world view (in both pieces), but this is a much more insightful work. I think where this piece succeeds (and where the first set fails) is that it's lets the visual speak as opposed to imposed (in those big letters that could not possible impart any trace of subtlety).
The observer can engage in dialogue with Maslow Board of Trade while merely being shouted to by the 7 sins.
Let's start with the 7 sins of capital: first, it's overtly political. Of course, politics in art is not in itself wrong or new - but there's a gradient: is this more art than politics, or more politics than art? My view is that it's the latter. One either agrees or disagrees with your thesis that these men are guilty of these sins and are responsible for the financial crisis. If one disagrees, then your piece neither convinces nor juxtaposes. Let's stay on that last thought: you juxtapose the capital sins with the catholic sins - but the juxtaposition doesn't work because they are neither one-to-one (is Madoff really lust? as oppose to envy, or greed?), nor particularly illuminating (aren't we all guilty of these sins? aren't we all responsible? .... hum - that would be an interesting subject, I think).
In the final analysis, I think my major issue with this set is that it doesn't elevate above being mere rhetoric.
The Maslow Board of Trade is must more interesting. I think it's quite good. I clearly disagree with your world view (in both pieces), but this is a much more insightful work. I think where this piece succeeds (and where the first set fails) is that it's lets the visual speak as opposed to imposed (in those big letters that could not possible impart any trace of subtlety).
The observer can engage in dialogue with Maslow Board of Trade while merely being shouted to by the 7 sins.
Thanks for that insight. It changes from "your "art" is shit" 
Well, I did not attibute sins randomly to characters. I have an explanation for each and I consider these pieces political. Regarding art, it's maybe questionable, I don't know. I did my best with my skills and put all my heart into these pieces as I usually do. For Madoff, I didn't choose Lust in the usual "sexual" meaning. Rather as a "living in opulence" meaning. Madoff was using his clients money to travel, live in luxury and even had yachts and jet. I attributed Envy to Jerome Kerviel, the French trader because he was suspected to envy his colleagues, who attended better schools than he did and wanted to prove them he was better than them. Greed for Lloyd Blankfein speaks for itself I think. Wrath for Fuld as well : he is famous for his bad character and certainly didn't appreciate seeing LB being sacrificed. Sloth for Chris Cox : I consider the SEC was too lazy to notice all that was happening on the markets. Pride for Paulson : He used the crisis to kill his long time opponent, Fuld. Angelo Mozilo is Gluttony : he created subprime because there was even more to "eat" on the RE market...
Will gladly continue that conversation if you want to, tomorrow. and thanks again for your interest and views on my art.
Best
Ced
Well, I did not attibute sins randomly to characters. I have an explanation for each and I consider these pieces political. Regarding art, it's maybe questionable, I don't know. I did my best with my skills and put all my heart into these pieces as I usually do. For Madoff, I didn't choose Lust in the usual "sexual" meaning. Rather as a "living in opulence" meaning. Madoff was using his clients money to travel, live in luxury and even had yachts and jet. I attributed Envy to Jerome Kerviel, the French trader because he was suspected to envy his colleagues, who attended better schools than he did and wanted to prove them he was better than them. Greed for Lloyd Blankfein speaks for itself I think. Wrath for Fuld as well : he is famous for his bad character and certainly didn't appreciate seeing LB being sacrificed. Sloth for Chris Cox : I consider the SEC was too lazy to notice all that was happening on the markets. Pride for Paulson : He used the crisis to kill his long time opponent, Fuld. Angelo Mozilo is Gluttony : he created subprime because there was even more to "eat" on the RE market...
Will gladly continue that conversation if you want to, tomorrow. and thanks again for your interest and views on my art.
Best
Ced
They are indeed political. And if that what they are, political pieces rather than art, then so be it.
Your views of these men are neither new, nor original, nor insightful. That's why I still consider these cheesy (I never said your work is shit; I said they were cheesy). Are they really the causes of the crisis? I can disagree with each and every one of your suppositions: Kerviel's effect is marginal out of SG; why Mozillo instead of the tens of thousands of mortgage brokers who sold liar loans - or the liars who lied on their loans; you can't honestly believe Paulson did what he did to settle a score... you seem a lot more intelligent than that; Madoff - like Kerviel, the effect of his scam is not large in terms of the actual crisis.
This is the problem with your technique: your work here does not engage the observer: it shouts at them. I argue that it puts your art on the level of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Allegory_of_the_1st_partition_of_Poland_crop.jpg) rather than this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rejtan_Upadek_Polski_Matejko.jpg).
Both are political on the same subject. The second rises to art while the first propaganda.
Your views of these men are neither new, nor original, nor insightful. That's why I still consider these cheesy (I never said your work is shit; I said they were cheesy). Are they really the causes of the crisis? I can disagree with each and every one of your suppositions: Kerviel's effect is marginal out of SG; why Mozillo instead of the tens of thousands of mortgage brokers who sold liar loans - or the liars who lied on their loans; you can't honestly believe Paulson did what he did to settle a score... you seem a lot more intelligent than that; Madoff - like Kerviel, the effect of his scam is not large in terms of the actual crisis.
This is the problem with your technique: your work here does not engage the observer: it shouts at them. I argue that it puts your art on the level of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Allegory_of_the_1st_partition_of_Poland_crop.jpg) rather than this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rejtan_Upadek_Polski_Matejko.jpg).
Both are political on the same subject. The second rises to art while the first propaganda.
A crisis or drama rarely has only one responsible or actor. Of course, thousands of liars were fully responsible for the whole crisis and Mozilo was certainly not the sole responsible for the subprime crisis. But for a "crime" there usually is only one judged guilty for many others... These guys are the poster boys... They are the guys who hit the media and got "famous". They are also those who made fortunes (except 1 or 2). Kerviel hit the news at this time. Up to date he is the trader responsible for the biggest trading loss and it happened at the beginning of the crisis. It may have not been a big deal in the US but it was here in Europe. About Paulson, maybe it's naive to think that he wanted Fuld's head and used the crisis to get it. But I think these guys are just men and their actions are motivated by basic feelings. Just like all of us. And I'm pretty certain these feelings play a role in bigger events. History is full of dramas driven by hatred, jealousy, love, wrath or whatever, without a glimpse of the larger scale view of events. After all, no one really expected the subsequent crisis when LB fell. It was not supposed to be such a domino style systemic risk. Do you think Gavrilo Princip expected to sparkle WWI when he assassinated Franz-Ferdinand ?
These "bad" guys inspired me that series, which, don't forget is a few years old now. Maybe it's cheesy, or poorly realized / expressed I don't know. I just wanted to put in perspective the 7 capital sins from Catholic religion and Financial Greed which leads to all these "sins". And that series is like a polaroid of troubled times. Maybe that series is not very original now because you see them 3 years later, out of the context when I made them ?
I'm pretty sure one could feel the same about the painting you posted (out of the technical and artistic talent, of course). Today, I just see an old classic painting, full of theatrical gestures, which was certainly very powerful in 1866, about a subject long forgotten...
I get what you mean though about your Poland artworks. But from my point of view both views are not correct. One is political and caricatural. The other is academic art and embellished view (and maybe even more political than the first one, as it was probably commissioned or serve the political idea of the painter). Both are necessarily wrong and the truth is probably a mix of the two... Think about Obama and Bin Laden... An artist view could be :
http://www.williamsstone.net/images/CaravaggioStone_ObamaBinladen.jpg
Whereas the "real" view is :
http://www.maati.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Obama3x6.png
The second picture is certainly far away from what a painter like the previous one would do... I guess he would paint Obama in low angle shot, dominating the scene, full of power maybe with a finger pointing an invisible screen, like a Ceasar choosing the deadly fate of his adversary... Reality is far less exciting. We see a very concentrated man, anxious and so small in that picture.
Anyway, doing my best to produce interesting art, expressing ideas with the few skills I have and learn (unfortunately, I am not a Caravage
PS : any reason to have chosen the Polish partition subject to express your view ?
PS bis : now, really off to bed, it's 11 pm here.
These "bad" guys inspired me that series, which, don't forget is a few years old now. Maybe it's cheesy, or poorly realized / expressed I don't know. I just wanted to put in perspective the 7 capital sins from Catholic religion and Financial Greed which leads to all these "sins". And that series is like a polaroid of troubled times. Maybe that series is not very original now because you see them 3 years later, out of the context when I made them ?
I'm pretty sure one could feel the same about the painting you posted (out of the technical and artistic talent, of course). Today, I just see an old classic painting, full of theatrical gestures, which was certainly very powerful in 1866, about a subject long forgotten...
I get what you mean though about your Poland artworks. But from my point of view both views are not correct. One is political and caricatural. The other is academic art and embellished view (and maybe even more political than the first one, as it was probably commissioned or serve the political idea of the painter). Both are necessarily wrong and the truth is probably a mix of the two... Think about Obama and Bin Laden... An artist view could be :
http://www.williamsstone.net/images/CaravaggioStone_ObamaBinladen.jpg
Whereas the "real" view is :
http://www.maati.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Obama3x6.png
The second picture is certainly far away from what a painter like the previous one would do... I guess he would paint Obama in low angle shot, dominating the scene, full of power maybe with a finger pointing an invisible screen, like a Ceasar choosing the deadly fate of his adversary... Reality is far less exciting. We see a very concentrated man, anxious and so small in that picture.
Anyway, doing my best to produce interesting art, expressing ideas with the few skills I have and learn (unfortunately, I am not a Caravage
PS : any reason to have chosen the Polish partition subject to express your view ?
PS bis : now, really off to bed, it's 11 pm here.
I think you are getting some good advice from DontMissTheBus, even if the delivery cuts close to the bone! Though I am not an art expert I tend to agree with DontMissTheBus that much of your art is kinda "cheesy" and overtly political. Not bad per se.
On a positive note the mutlimedia Maslow Board of Trade piece above IS more interesting. You might have found your genre there.
Hopefully you can use this thread as motivation to continue improving your work..
Hello
I have to agree my stuff is getting more and more into political expression even if it was not my intent at first. But Economics and Politics are so much related and entangled nowadays it is difficult to avoid. My next series I am working on will be overtly political regarding the debt crisis.
I'm glad you find my Maslow Board of Trade interesting. It's one of my latest work and the level can be of course unequal. I found interesting echoes here and criticism has to be taken constructively if it is said with no free agressivity
My motivation is intact as I take great pleasure in doing my art and share it with you. There is a learning curve and I am at the start of it...
I have to agree my stuff is getting more and more into political expression even if it was not my intent at first. But Economics and Politics are so much related and entangled nowadays it is difficult to avoid. My next series I am working on will be overtly political regarding the debt crisis.
I'm glad you find my Maslow Board of Trade interesting. It's one of my latest work and the level can be of course unequal. I found interesting echoes here and criticism has to be taken constructively if it is said with no free agressivity
My motivation is intact as I take great pleasure in doing my art and share it with you. There is a learning curve and I am at the start of it...