VTS/Echotrader

OK my gripe with VTS was two fold and I must feign ignorance on one of them. First, I had recurring MAJOR reliability problems and PC resource issues. Basically, the VTS system seemed to wreak havoc on my machine ( not a slouch machine either)and the quotes were not reliable at all. My ignorance relates to the fact that a tech head I am not. All the stuff that Trader J and Rtharp mention about "my T3 cloud infrastructure's connected to my server farm, my server farm's connected to my redundant frame relay, my redundant frame relay's connected to my point to point backbone server, my point to point backbone server's connected to my single hop connection"....oops sorry I was just reading a story to my 4 year old a few minutes ago and was in that mode. Anyway, it sounds too sophisticated and complicated for them to have made it up so I have to assume that there is great merit in their statements. So I now restate my first problem as "I had terrible reliability issues while trading with VTS....however the source of those reliability issues are not clear to me as the tech stuff is not my gig."

By the way I traded on it with Sutton Online and if you go to there site they have a "t1 connected to my backbone" nursery rhyme of their own referencing ATT's/hyperfeed's awesome server farm, direct ECN connections (ISLD and ARCA only I believe), etc. and I can tell you that trading on VTS with them SUCKED! That's all I know and I did not have the patience to figure out why.

The second gripe I had was just posted by Klaorman so I need not be repiticious. I actively work my orders and found the order entry capabilities less than desireable compared to other platforms. Realtick is not that much better, but they have the big fat boxes for each route on the order book window, and their hotkeys (which I used exclusively) were much more flexible in their configuration.

THe bottom line is drop down menus SUCK for order routing when trading momentum! And VTS does not even have the standard windows fucntionality whereby if you click on a dropdown window then type the first letter of one of the menu choices, it toggles right to it so you don't have to line up that damn mouse pointer in the heat of battle when the trade's moving away, your P/L is getting slammed, your hand is shaking, etc.....Shit I clicked ISI bad order....OK ISLD damn its gone....OK SOES....order killed no MM available....back to ISLD.....each time clicking that stupid drop down menu....no thanks.

Now I am transitioning to a Watcher-like platform because I like to just bang a key and be filled and mousing and clicking just does not work for me. From that perspective, I do find it difficult to see how the trader in Chitown referenced by TJim could do 2000 trades a day "clicking like a madman" I just don't see how that could be done except with keys.

Finally Klaorman, you will not get the smart order functionality that you want with VTS. ALso, the limited Smart routing capability differs from one b/d to the next and I think it is as simple as the b/d telling Tim Zu how they want it programmed. RT has the Arca NOW order which looks for a match directly from (I think) 4 ECN's and if its not there the order dies...ie no routing to SNET. With SS though I wonder if regular ARCA orders would not be a decent option...ie looks for match in ISLD/ARCA and I believe 2 other ECN's using direct connections, then SNET pref to non-direct ECN's and finally to SS. It's a new world out there with SS and smart ECN's no doubt.

So in summary, if the reliablity issues with VTS relate to the b/d and/or connectivity issues unrelated to the platform, then I have egg on my face. I simply do not have the knowledge in this area to make an informed response either way. Regardless, the order entry capabilities lack the capability I would like for my style, but for many traders I am sure they are more than adaquate. Hope that helps clarify my position.
 
If you are interested in Echo than try a demo with Echo

Call Rob Keller up at the office. 602-977-0777. I can post till my fingers turn red from typing but only you can make the decision evaluate the software yourself. I find it great for everything I do.

The reliability is with the servers. Echo got the name echo from it's redundance, it is a top of the line system, followed by a back up, followed by a back up , followed by a back up.........followed by another back up. Hence the name Echo it just keeps going.

PS As I am now recieving referral fees from Echo tell Rob you heard about them from me.

Rtharp
 
RTharp,

I just sent you an email via the Elite email function, but it did some strange things at the end. If you did not get it let me know and I will resend.
 
Klaorman,

I agree with Rtharp, do the demo through Echo for the platform. I have seen pictures of VTS on other people's sites, and it looks a little different. I know Echo works closely with Tim Zhu, they always have diferent beta versions they are testing, and we get updates all the time with new features.

The guy doing 2000 trades a day is doing all NYSE stocks. He does it all in 500 and 1000 share increments. They have some other guys that trade close to what this guy does too. There are some tricks to the software that they teach you when they are walking you your first day with them that teach you how to trade quickly. All the stuff you are trying to do, I think they have ways to do. I would just ask the trading desk at Echo some of these questions, they are who I call to learn the tricks of the software, they are well trained on it. Also, I know First Alert's order entry has some cool features that do all this too, I don't know if they give internet demos of it though. You might have to go into an Echo office for that.

-Jim
 
Wow I guess you can always learn something in this industry. At Rtharp's suggestion I called Rob at ECHO and ended up talking to Jeff for over an hour. First off, the fact that he gave me an hour of his time says something.

Secondly, he proceeded to fully explain the differences between VTS platforms from b/d to b/d, specifically the way their execution route and/or data feeds may be set up, corraborating Trader Jim's and Rtharp's statements. He then showed me some of the execution tricks with VTS that TJ just referred to in his last post and I was amazed. Not so much at the tricks themselves, but that such functinality could exist in the platform and NONE of the other VTS shops even know it. I have worked with at least three different VTS shops and I guarantee their trade support desks knew nothing of these features.

Therefore, though I haven't personally experienced the lighning fast efficient connections that ECHO has, I take the word of three different users and the fact that guys are banging out 2000 trades a day on it (also verified by Jeff). That, combined with what I learned about the (hidden) enhanced order routing features, makes me retract my earlier statements about VTS. ECHO seems to be a class act and I would imagine on the verge of explosive growth with the pending implentatioin of the 25K rule.
 
Klaor,

As far as your concern over a smart key goes, here are my thoughts. ARCA functionality under SuperSOES will first look for an internal ARCA match, then look for a match within ECN's with direct connections (currently ISLD, INCA and 1 or 2 others I believe), then SNET preference to matches in non-direct ECN's, then to SuperSOES.

Considering the enhanced order execution effeciency of SS (0 second interval delay and executions directly against MM reserve volume), perhaps you would be achieving much of what you wanted with an ARCA order. Your concern seemed to be with the SNET preference to MM's which I agree could be frustrating. With ARCA one can get direct liquidity from 4 ECN's, indirect liquidity from the other 3 via SNET pref to ECNSs (still pretty damn fast) and finally send the rest to SS where MM's can't hide behind their reserve volume for 17 seconds at a time. FInally, you can always cancel in mid-order and re-work it yourself with good order entry skills and a good platform. Its a new world with SS and only time will tell.
 
When I started that thread about 10-1 Margin I emailed/called the firms mentioned.

There are still a few that have never returned a phone call or replied to an email. That was a red flag to me about the firm.

Echo replied within the hour and no matter what I needed was there for me. I ended talking with Jeff for about 4 hours the 2nd time we talked. We realized that we knew the same traders at the Chicago Board of Trade because we were both there at the same time. I made a phone call to ask about Jeff to some of my trader buddies on the floor. They had nothing bad to say about Jeff.

A few months later I made a verbal agreement to open an office for them. (I think that should say how much I like them) You might soon see me at the Online Expo in a booth for Echo.

rtharp
 
TradeCourse2

Can you give an example or two of the order functionality 'tricks' you were talking about?
 
Regarding ARCA, one clarification regarding how participants are hit: The ARCA order is received, then broken into partials with partials sent to all participants simultaneously (not one following the other in series). It is a parallel system. Simultaneously, each participant with size is allocated size.

Take a marketable 5,000 share NASDAQ order for example: Simultaneously, the ARCA book might be hit for 500, ISLD for 1,000, SNET to non-direct ECN for 500, SuperSOES MM for 500, and SNET residual 2,500 to chosen MM(s) with record of having reserve and reliably filling size in the issue. The system is continuously tuned per participant performance, and partial size is allocated accordingly. If a SNET MM is not responsive, that partial order auto-cancels at approx. 15 sec. (no longer 30 sec.), and the order is refreshed (again hitting ARCA book, ECNs, MMs). Limit orders sweep tiers in price priority up to the limit price. Market orders fill only at the inside.

There is a priority to route choice, however, and that is described by TraderCourse2 above (with oversize SNET to MMs last in priority).

SuperSOES is a great improvement.
 
Lancer,

Good point of clarification regarding simultaneous splitting and directing of the ARCA order. I have one question though. Why would only 500 shares go to SS in your example and 2,500 go to "reliable" MM's via SNET? With SNET preference orders forced to be oversized and thus non-liability orders to the MM, and with no maximum to a SuperSOES order, my understanding was that all residual volume after internal, direct and non-direct ECNs would go to SS.

I do think it is rather strange that ARCA (nor any of the Townsend related entities) have posted anything in written form regarding the changes to the SNET algorithm since SS came online. I called there the other day and you would have thought I was talking another language!
 
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