Victor Niederhoffer--- Rare Silver Auction Catalog

[Rearden Metal]

Quote from acronym:

Bingo.

Trophy and presentation silver?=worthless. Kinda like a signed bat from barry bonds, or similiar.

What trophies?What presentations? Only a die hard fan would go for it.


Excellence in what-the thai market kicked his ass, this guy is a real lesson to penny dreadfull traders everywhere.
Really, he is.
I just dont give a crap anymore, so i just say it like it is.

You want tawdry, unsubstantiated ebay auctions, you got it!

Ok, let's try this again: Have you ever seen pictures of Vic's old silver collection? (Not the angel, but other pieces. ) If so, where did you see them?

 

[jem]

I wonder if the seller is surf.

 

[der_kommissar]

Quote from jem:

I wonder if the seller is surf.

Gee, you have to even ask the question? Does Vic live in Wayne, PA? No, didn't think so. But the imbecile you know who does.

So now Surf gets to pawn off the collection of his hero. What a pathetic f'ing site.

 

[marketsurfer]

Quote from jem:

surf - how come I have not gotten props from you about VN. I believe I pulled an RM for clarity of prediction about VN.

edit

If you have any more softballs Surf I like them about chest high with the arc no higher than 12 feet. [/QUOTE


your making many unsubstaniated claims and statements here, jem. sounds like viterol coming from a total loser and jealous person.

there is really nothing more i can say, other than, baring very likely forces out of his control this time, yeah, he pushed things too far in an effort to maintain top ranking and high returns for his investors with an excessive AUM. do you know what a "high water mark" is? do you understand the risk needed to be taken each successive year to beat the high water mark with a rapidly growing AUM? do you understand the pressure to maintain a certain percentage gains or have your capital pulled by your investor--no excuses accepted, make the gains or lose your capital? just speculating here, of course.

it's VN's highly competitive nature that appears to be his blessing and his curse---not your bizzare allegations.


surf

 

[taowave]

Quote from marketsurfer:

Quote from jem:


there is really nothing more i can say, other than, baring very likely forces out of his control this time, yeah, he pushed things too far in an effort to maintain top ranking and high returns for his investors with an excessive AUM. do you know what a "high water mark" is? do you understand the risk needed to be taken each successive year to beat the high water mark with a rapidly growing AUM? do you understand the pressure to maintain a certain percentage gains or have your capital pulled by your investor--no excuses accepted, make the gains or lose your capital.

it's VN's highly competitive nature that appears to be his blessing and his curse---not your bizzare allegations.
surf

Surf,a couple of questions..

1)What is AUM??

2)What does high water mark have to do with Vices trading/ need to take what could be deemed excessive risk??Are you saying he will take down as much imprudent risk as he can stomach to get paid or satiate his monserous ego??Do you think Vice would be revolutionary in returning capital to investors as he cant efficiently deploy the capital??

3)Are you implying that if "Vice" merely returned 18-25% per year with reduced volatility,his investors would pull their capital??

4) If a personality trait ultimately leads you to go the way of the dinosaur,as in extinct,its probably doesnt fall under the blessing category

The more you defend Vice,the more daming the testimony.

 

[Icarus5]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Ok, let's try this again: Have you ever seen pictures of Vic's old silver collection? (Not the angel, but other pieces. ) If so, where did you see them?

It seems that it was a rather exceptional collection was auctioned off at Soethby's for a cool 2.5mm.

Vic's Garage Sale

And that was only from the first auction, so I seriously doubt it was tawdry (it actually took at least two more auctions to liquidate his holdings) :eek:
***
Niederhoffer’s collection, says Sotheby’s Tierney, was unique. “Victor was obsessed by talent and success. It was a personal thing in his life. As a young man growing up, he really proved himself, becoming a champion in squash—traditionally a conservative, Waspy sport. He reflected in his silver the idea that these items were given to mark a moment of remarkable achievement, and as a result, they themselves had to be of special quality. It was a two-pronged theme.”

I

 

[Icarus5]

Like Surf and RM are saying, it seems that Vic was "all that and a bag of chips".

A Hedge Fund Meltdown

Reading over the article, I could only see two (fatal flaws) which contributed to being his Achielle's Hell.

(1) The first is that he overleveraged his positions. At least one of the reasons he may have overleveraged his positions was because he designed mathematical models that worked on every market in the world that conducted legitimate trade in securities. What I mean by that is that if a market does not conduct legitimate trade in securites, it can be priced wherever a brokerage/financial institutions/government wants it to be, and at that point, you can throw all of your analysis out the window. This may account for why he said he no longer traded the Phillipine markets .. I don't know, as I haven't spoken to him about this. This leads to the next point.

(2) He did not factor the human element into his equations. His models were based on a rather "pure" world of mathematical certainty. It was rare for price action to fall outside of its parameters, and even when it did, it would eventually just rebound with even more ferocity in the direction that he had originally anticipted it would go.

But what he left out of his analysis is that human beging (that's a typo, but I'll leave it) operate on greed, so whenever his position experienced weakness, the opportunistic brokerages took advantage of him. This is in part fact, and in part conjecture on my part, but I have no doubt that it is true.

His only flaw was in believing too much in his mathetimatical models, models which have never been wrong, when conducting his trades. If he had played it only a little more conservatively, he would still be extremely solvent, and he would still go down as one of the very best traders to ever play the game.

I

 

[marketsurfer]

Quote from taowave:

Surf,a couple of questions..

1)What is AUM??

2)What does high water mark have to do with Vices trading/ need to take what could be deemed excessive risk??Are you saying he will take down as much imprudent risk as he can stomach to get paid or satiate his monserous ego??Do you think Vice would be revolutionary in returning capital to investors as he cant efficiently deploy the capital??

3)Are you implying that if "Vice" merely returned 18-25% per year with reduced volatility,his investors would pull their capital??

4) If a personality trait ultimately leads you to go the way of the dinosaur,as in extinct,its probably doesnt fall under the blessing category

The more you defend Vice,the more daming the testimony.

1. A ssets U nder M anagement

2. highwater mark one must always improve their performance to the next level with increasing capital. why return the capital? whe one is doing what they are paid to do--win or lose.

3. yes--investors invest in hedge funds for certain results. obviously, VN would be chosen as high risk/high return strategies--- many hedge fund investors are in effect traders of hedge funds--- the one's that don't perform simply get culled out and replaced on a continuing basis. the pressure to perform is fierce. retail guys can't fathom it as evidenced in yours and others comments. furthermore, fund's paperwork generally outline the strategies to be employed, style drift is frowned upon and in and of itself a reason given to redeem at times.

4. if your just average, you will never understand.

VN has returned far more to his investors as a whole overall, than he has lost.

 

[marketsurfer]

Quote from Icarus5:

Like Surf and RM are saying, it seems that Vic was "all that and a bag of chips".

A Hedge Fund Meltdown

Reading over the article, I could only see two (fatal flaws) which contributed to being his Achielle's Hell.

(1) The first is that he overleveraged his positions. At least one of the reasons he may have overleveraged his positions was because he designed mathematical models that worked on every market in the world that conducted legitimate trade in securities. What I mean by that is that if a market does not conduct legitimate trade in securites, it can be priced wherever a brokerage/financial institutions/government wants it to be, and at that point, you can throw all of your analysis out the window. This may account for why he said he no longer traded the Phillipine markets .. I don't know, as I haven't spoken to him about this. This leads to the next point.

(2) He did not factor the human element into his equations. His models were based on a rather "pure" world of mathematical certainty. It was rare for price action to fall outside of its parameters, and even when it did, it would eventually just rebound with even more ferocity in the direction that he had originally anticipted it would go.

But what he left out of his analysis is that human beging (that's a typo, but I'll leave it) operate on greed, so whenever his position experienced weakness, the opportunistic brokerages took advantage of him. This is in part fact, and in part conjecture on my part, but I have no doubt that it is true.

His only flaw was in believing too much in his mathetimatical models, models which have never been wrong, when conducting his trades. If he had played it only a little more conservatively, he would still be extremely solvent, and he would still go down as one of the very best traders to ever play the game.

I

very well said, icarus.

most of the traders here just don't understand--- thanks for laying it out in simplistic terms.

regards,

surf

 

[Icarus5]

Last but not least, here's an article from some guy named David Goodboy which goes in-depth in trying to understand Vic, what shapes his opinions about the marketplace, and why he trades the way he does.

Not for noth'in, it was Dave who made the forshadowing statement of Pride Going before a Fall during the interview.

The Biggest Stock Market Cons

Aside: Great read on many different levels, and one of the best arguments of all for never showing anyone how or why you trade the way you do, as it pretty much gaurantees you'll only be competing with yourself ... this is once again, a human attribute.

I