Very short time frames

S

salp

I have daily communications with another futures trader for an exchange of ideas. He trades the CL and has disclosed his trading style to me. He uses either a 10 second or a 10 tick chart and then places multiple open order on both sides of the market. He insists that this method wins, and now wants me to study the 10 tick versus 10 second charts to optimize trading outcomes.
I'm having a problem trading at this speed and I believe that, while short bursts of winning are possible, the ultimate outcome of this trading style is an account wipe out. In my attempt to be honest and fair, I would ask for others to voice their opinions on this trading style with this instrument.
Thank You All.
 
you may have obtained better results if you'd posted in the Technical Analysis or the
Energies forum
I sometimes think that people only read specific forums, or don't read threads they
think don't relate to that particular forum

I think you should ask your question on this thread which is about CL trading and
where it appears contributors are discussing trading techniques -
'CL Redux': http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=178741

I don't trade the cl but have analyzed it for years
can't understand why people intraday the instruments they do, I can understand
holding a position from $50 - $100 , but the cl requires double the daytrading margin
and doesn't move that much intraday
I did a comparison a couple of years ago between the daily range of the ES and the
eurusd/6E and found the daily range of the eurusd/6E was 2.5 time greater than the ES

anyway, being a technical analyst I'd say your pal doesn't understand price movement
so is using the trading technique he's using; however, his system may make complete
sense and logic to him, and be profitable, so good luck to him

it's certainly a very short tf and I've used such myself, but when the market gets active -
ES, 6E I've always had to increase the tick quantity in order to 'keep up' with the price
but the main question is if one can make sense of another person's trading system, And
make profits with it, and since you've already stated you have "a problem trading at this speed"
it's discussion over really
 
Quote from salp:

I have daily communications with another futures trader for an exchange of ideas. He trades the CL and has disclosed his trading style to me. He uses either a 10 second or a 10 tick chart and then places multiple open order on both sides of the market. He insists that this method wins, and now wants me to study the 10 tick versus 10 second charts to optimize trading outcomes.
I'm having a problem trading at this speed and I believe that, while short bursts of winning are possible, the ultimate outcome of this trading style is an account wipe out. In my attempt to be honest and fair, I would ask for others to voice their opinions on this trading style with this instrument.
Thank You All.
More...

Salp, with respect, why not just get the data and test it yourself? That gives you a clear-cut objective answer instead of considering opinions which in all likelihood won't be worth what you paid for them.
 
Quote from Wallace:but the cl requires double the daytrading margin
and doesn't move that much intraday
More...

You clearly have not watched oil that closely then.

A $1 move can happen in the blink of an eye. Good luck finding that on the ES.

As always, this forum can provide some ideas but you better verify it for yourself as we see here that Wallace is providing very poor information. He stated himself he doesn't trade it, but more than happy to tell you all about it. And incorrectly at that.
 
Quote from mcgene4xpro:

The only way to play the very short time frames is Automatic. Manually, you will be in more risky condition.
More...

Spot on, mcgene!

I use a 5-min chart for the big picture setups and a 1-min chart for precision entries and tight protective stops. I also use the 1-min chart for scalping .20 profits in ranges and choppy price action. I would NEVER trade off a 1-min chart without a setup on the 5-min chart. You're out of your league doing that, unless you have thousands of hours of experience and lightning fast decision-making and reaction time reflexes. If you aren't incredibly focused and quick on the draw with NO hesitation, even that long, leisurely 1-min chart can throw you off your game.

Trading shorter time frames by hand is dangerous and completely unnecessary. You can see where the automated systems work the 1-min chart, which is a long time frame compared to a 10-tick chart, and if you're trading off it and aren't quick-as-a-bunny, the bots will eat you alive.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
 
From my experience as a CTA, I can surely take the same stance as NoDoji and some others on here about trading anything less than the 1min chart, UNDER 1min and YOU ARE ASKING FOR FRAYED NERVES.

Way too much noise and too bouncy once you get into the under 1 min time frame. Im telling you this from over 5 yrs experience trading full time


Good luck..
 
Hi,

I have talked about the very short time frames " from one second to something like 10 seconds" but i consider 1 minute and 5 minutes short and not very short.

If you have an EDGE, so no matter which time frame you are going to play. However, to compromise with the normal latency of human thinking time and reflexes, one should play manually on short and automatically on very short..

The point here.. DO YOU HAVE AN EDGE OR NOT.. if so, so just use the suitable tool to play it.. That is my 2 cent and i might be wrong.

Quote from NoDoji:

Spot on, mcgene!

I use a 5-min chart for the big picture setups and a 1-min chart for precision entries and tight protective stops. I also use the 1-min chart for scalping .20 profits in ranges and choppy price action. I would NEVER trade off a 1-min chart without a setup on the 5-min chart. You're out of your league doing that, unless you have thousands of hours of experience and lightning fast decision-making and reaction time reflexes. If you aren't incredibly focused and quick on the draw with NO hesitation, even that long, leisurely 1-min chart can throw you off your game.

Trading shorter time frames by hand is dangerous and completely unnecessary. You can see where the automated systems work the 1-min chart, which is a long time frame compared to a 10-tick chart, and if you're trading off it and aren't quick-as-a-bunny, the bots will eat you alive.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
More...
 
my criteria for choosing an instrument for intraday trading is primarily the Daily Range, the
required daytrading margin, and daily volume
now I haven't compared all instruments with each other to know if there's a clear winner
but here's some info

Daily Range - High minus Low for the week of April 4 thru 8 2011

CL - via BarChart
4: 100
5: 110
6: 143
7: 221
8: 307
---------
T 881 x $10 per pip/tick = $8,810 @ $1,000 daytrade margin

6E - June contract
4: 76
5: 95
6: 132
7: 93
8: 400
---------
T 796 x $12.50 per pip = $9,950 @ $500 daytrade margin, but
since we can afford to trade 2 contracts ~ $500 x 2 = $1,000 ~ the T = $19,900

the average DR for each of the 258 trading days in 2009 was 146 pips for the eurusd
@ $12.50 per pip = $1,825 x 5 days = $9,125 x 2 contracts = $18,250 ; $78,475 per month


every instrument is going to have slow, narrow periods and may vary from year to year
and the Financials may offer the best $ value DR, particularly the TB which has the
highest tick value of $31.25, but until you make the comparison, you don't know

outside of instrument specifics, as far as I'm concerned there's no difference when
trading one instrument over another - excepting the profit potential offered by the DR

and for those that Can open an account with a non North American forex broker, the
margin to trade one Lot - $100,000 of the eurusd can be $250 ~ day and o/n
which would = $9,950 @ $250 x 4 = $39,800 for last week's DR
 
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