Using ES Time and Sales

[nononsense]

Quote from Grob109:

I have never been able to match what I say into anyone's pictures on the first pass.

So far what I have done here is go through posting a demo print, and some specific responses to clean up the timing flak.

A lot of people here are responding to my posts. they certainly help me to get more familiar with the nature of ET and the kind of people here. There is quite a spectrum.

[etc...]

[etc...]

[etc...]

The entire purpose of everything is to build complete and comprehensive NLP picture sets that bury garbage, myths, and baggage acquired mostly by consistent prior failure.

This is the starting point.

Jack is certainly a very talented energetic person. The output of his pen is really mind boggling. I see in fact very little of it but I keep stumbling on his "output" in the most unexpected corners. He is also a very disturbed person - no NLP can help him. It suffices to read the above quote to see that he considers himself as some kind of Greek mythological figure of the benevolent type for all mankind.

As many poor souls flock to ET trying to pick a little grain of market wisdom, he will always attract huge crowds. As we saw some would almost die for him in order to defend him.

In the context of what we read in the "Using ES Time and Sales" thread a few things seem very clear:

As others have pointed out, Jack doesn't appear to trade, doesn't appear to have an account even. He fools around on an IB demo, posts records about his little game and believes that because of the "nature of ET and the kind of people here" (sic), he can get away with this.

In insane asylums you encounter brilliant people - they are nevertheless insane. Jack, true to his NLP stuff, did and does a lot of thinking about the market. He "invents" a lot of stuff, given his creative mind, but het never had any contact with reality: the market. So he keeps rambling along about intellectual discipline but never submitted himself and his ideas to the market. You could call this the insane genius syndrome.

A good case in point is his placard story about the bid and the ask lines lined up before the table. This is a nice picture. In fact he is 100% correct when he maintains that when the "ask" line is in the minority prices will have to go up. He is also 100% right in his expressed belief that it would be nice to be on the side of the longs (did I get this right? haha). However were he fails is that he does not have the foggiest notion of what actually goes on at his dream "market table". Supposing that you are not long yet, observing and trying to react to the above imbalance situation between bid and asks, it will be impossible to get in at a price level enabling you to profit from his observation. For electronically traded markets this is very obvious from the priority mechanism implemented by the exchange in algorithm. You simply end up last in the huge line of bidders. Jack is completely oblivious to this, so he keeps rambling along, uncaught but admired by the many naive, bubba7 and grob in the first row.

What ET should do about this? I really don't know. I don't spend very much time around here but I find the place very interesting. Once in a while I try to post something in the hope that it will help to keep ET this way trying to squelch what I perceive as gross nonsense. I hope that I contributed a spark of sanity to ET.

nononsens

 

[laziz314159]

Quote from traderkay:

Jack, can you just cut the crap and answer simple questions being asked with simple answers? The thread went on for X many pages and people are still guessing whether you would hit the bid or the offer and under what circumstances. Come on!!!!!

Let's try this again. Work with me Jack. BEST BID SIZE = 1000 ; BEST ASK SIZE = 200; Now to the super question... would Jack hit the bid (go short) or hit the ask (go long) here? Possible answers for Jack: a) hit the bid b) hit the offer. Just a or b Jack please, no extra crap.

Traderkay,

One would lift the offer (B), given the right context. The context is provided (or at least hinted at) by the framework in the imagery. You can't just take a rule like 'hit the smaller size' and apply it willy-nilly. Nobody is arguing that.

The extra bonus material (table, group, placard imagery) used is to shift your frame of reference while considering what is a simple proposition.

To learn cool things from Jack, one has to shift one's focus to process from product. This is also what the much-maligned 'repetitiveness' is for, to get one to undertake that shift.

All of this (the reference-shifting bit) is in the Version II stuff, if you care to read it and see the bigger picture.

If you have t&s history w/ szbid/szask, go look through fridays trades. IIRC, the last short had something like a 1:8 bid/offer size ratio when it was taken.

Good Luck,
Laz

 

[laziz314159]

Quote from nononsense:



Jack is certainly a very talented energetic person. The output of his pen is really mind boggling. I see in fact very little of it but I keep stumbling on his "output" in the most unexpected corners. He is also a very disturbed person - no NLP can help him. It suffices to read the above quote to see that he considers himself as some kind of Greek mythological figure of the benevolent type for all mankind.

This kind of ad hominem attack is uncouth and unnecessary. I doubt you would say this sort of thing to anyone's face. Frankly you owe him an apology.

Furthermore, anyone with even a passing acquaintence w/ the hermeneutics of critical reading (e.g., freshman lit) would know that the quoted author is not casting himself as a member of the Greek Pantheon. The idea is ludicrous.

As many poor souls flock to ET trying to pick a little grain of market wisdom, he will always attract huge crowds. As we saw some would almost die for him in order to defend him.

He attracts crowds because he's actually trying to say something. Would that we all try to contribute that much, even if people didn't understand what we were trying to convey..

In the context of what we read in the "Using ES Time and Sales" thread a few things seem very clear:

As others have pointed out, Jack doesn't appear to trade, doesn't appear to have an account even. He fools around on an IB demo, posts records about his little game and believes that because of the "nature of ET and the kind of people here" (sic), he can get away with this.

You know not of what you speak. The last batch of trades
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=347838
were done in real time, on a real account. Even traderkay (one of his more persistent hecklers) heard him make the calls in real time.

I have posted a chart of the trades from 13:00- on, if you'd like a different visual representation.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=347838

In insane asylums you encounter brilliant people <..snip>

Again with the ad hominem bs.

I think you're trying to be funny, but it's horribly offensive. The preponderance of evidence suggests that he trades. I listen to him every day, and have no doubt of that fact.

A good case in point is his placard story about the bid and the ask lines lined up before the table. This is a nice picture. In fact he is 100% correct when he maintains that when the "ask" line is in the minority prices will have to go up. He is also 100% right in his expressed belief that it would be nice to be on the side of the longs (did I get this right? haha). However were he fails is that he does not have the foggiest notion of what actually goes on at his dream "market table". Supposing that you are not long yet, observing and trying to react to the above imbalance situation between bid and asks, it will be impossible to get in at a price level enabling you to profit from his observation. For electronically traded markets this is very obvious from the priority mechanism implemented by the exchange in algorithm. You simply end up last in the huge line of bidders.

Erm, not if you pay the spread. Jack uses market orders for this stuff. You can see that from the marked trades in the chart I posted, paying the spread makes a profit-- waiting in the long line leaves you behind.

Jack is completely oblivious to this, so he keeps rambling along, uncaught but admired by the many naive, bubba7 and grob in the first row.

Uncaught by whom? Even his most innocuous posts are immediately jumped upon. Those of us who admire him do so because we generate tangible and intangible value from his posts.


--laz

 

[nononsense]

Quote from laziz314159:


[...]
Erm, not if you pay the spread. Jack uses market orders for this stuff. You can see that from the marked trades in the chart I posted, paying the spread makes a profit-- waiting in the long line leaves you behind.
[...]

--laz

laz, you bring this up, Jack did not discuss this mechanism in his table and placards story. As he pretends to inform beginners, he should have mentioned at least something about this.

I am not convinced by your hearsay evidence: "Even txx (one of his more persistent hecklers) heard him make the calls in real time. "Did Jack not claim he traded on IB, at least this is what I recognized from his published listing. Do you make calls to do this? How can you be fast enough if you have to do these kind of things over the telephone? How come one of his most persistent hecklers was present at the right moment to hear him make calls.

nononsense

 

[laziz314159]

Quote from nononsense:


laz, you bring this up, Jack did not discuss this mechanism in his table and placards story. As he pretends to inform beginners, he should have mentioned at least something about this.

I am not convinced by your hearsay evidence: "Even txx (one of his more persistent hecklers) heard him make the calls in real time. "Did Jack not claim he traded on IB, at least this is what I recognized from his published listing. Do you make calls to do this? How can you be fast enough if you have to do these kind of things over the telephone? How come one of his most persistent hecklers was present at the right moment to hear him make calls.

nononsense

Market orders are the only thing that make sense with the explanation.

Re telephones: Perhaps I should have said, "Traderkay heard jack give realtime indication of the trades." No telephones were involved. Jack gave everyone realtime indications in a chat room.

He talks regularly about the way his columns are arranged in tws, etc. I'm not sure what level of proof would be sufficient for you. the tws trade log is about as good as it gets..

--laz

 

[simstim]

Quote from traderkay:

Jack, can you just cut the crap and answer simple questions being asked with simple answers? The thread went on for X many pages and people are still guessing whether you would hit the bid or the offer and under what circumstances. Come on!!!!!

Let's try this again. Work with me Jack. BEST BID SIZE = 1000 ; BEST ASK SIZE = 200; Now to the super question... would Jack hit the bid (go short) or hit the ask (go long) here? Possible answers for Jack: a) hit the bid b) hit the offer. Just a or b Jack please, no extra crap.

some people just plain can't read. i skimmed through just the last few pages, and there are at least three EXPLICIT times Grob mentioned exactly what he does when the bbid is smaller or the bask is smaller. IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE ELITETRADER or hand holding for people who are too lazy to read???????????? I wouldn't surprised if Grob has you on his ignore list (you're on mine now). I could answer your question for you here and now, but two days later you would post the same fricking question again and again.

if you have a hard time understanding everything jack/grob has to say, here is what i do. i paste everything he posts into a notepad, i cut stuff that seems to me to be not really pertaining to the topic but interesting, and move it to the bottom of the document so i am not distracted by it. what's usually left is a few good tidbits and the core of his message.

however, when he was explaining the bbid/bask stuff, it was in PLAIN english, it couldnt have been more clear >:|

 

[OldTrader]

Quote from laziz314159:




One would lift the offer (B), given the right context. The context is provided (or at least hinted at) by the framework in the imagery. You can't just take a rule like 'hit the smaller size' and apply it willy-nilly. Nobody is arguing that.

Here's what Jack/grob said: "The minority size on the bbid and bask rules. I use the smaller number of contracts showing to determine what side I am on. If the bbid is smallest then the seller controls and I am in short. I stay there and the market falls. After a while and through several prices changes the smaller number shifts to the bask side."

There does not seem to be much qualification here. It sounds like he hits the bid when it's smaller, and vice versa.

Chances are though you are right....and I'll tell you why: No one can possible hit all the bids when they are the smaller size, and vice versa, because this happens nearly everytime a bid level (or ask level) is taken out.

But I wonder how many beginners are out there today trying to hit that small bid (or small ask)? I hope none...because if that is all there is to the technique then it does not work. Yet this seems to be the impression that Jack/grob has created.

You know, one of the problems that grob creates for himself is that he makes what appear to be outlandish claims for his methods. I recall back when he started talking about his "rocket" technique. He made some very large claims regarding what a beginner could do. As far as I know, no one did it. But if they did, let them step forward with a record.

Now Jack/grob seems to be claiming he can make $600 an hour with a one lot. Now I have to call bullshit on that one in the absence of any type of proof. I'd like just one person to step forward who has obtained that type of result for even a week.

The combination of outlandish claims and extremely poor communication skills is going to keep Jack/grob on the defense would be my guess.

OldTrader

 

[Grob109]

Quote from nononsense:



Jack is certainly a very talented energetic person. The output of his pen is really mind boggling. I see in fact very little of it but I keep stumbling on his "output" in the most unexpected corners. He is also a very disturbed person - no NLP can help him. It suffices to read the above quote to see that he considers himself as some kind of Greek mythological figure of the benevolent type for all mankind.

As many poor souls flock to ET trying to pick a little grain of market wisdom, he will always attract huge crowds. As we saw some would almost die for him in order to defend him.

In the context of what we read in the "Using ES Time and Sales" thread a few things seem very clear:

As others have pointed out, Jack doesn't appear to trade, doesn't appear to have an account even. He fools around on an IB demo, posts records about his little game and believes that because of the "nature of ET and the kind of people here" (sic), he can get away with this.

In insane asylums you encounter brilliant people - they are nevertheless insane. Jack, true to his NLP stuff, did and does a lot of thinking about the market. He "invents" a lot of stuff, given his creative mind, but het never had any contact with reality: the market. So he keeps rambling along about intellectual discipline but never submitted himself and his ideas to the market. You could call this the insane genius syndrome.

A good case in point is his placard story about the bid and the ask lines lined up before the table. This is a nice picture. In fact he is 100% correct when he maintains that when the "ask" line is in the minority prices will have to go up. He is also 100% right in his expressed belief that it would be nice to be on the side of the longs (did I get this right? haha). However were he fails is that he does not have the foggiest notion of what actually goes on at his dream "market table". Supposing that you are not long yet, observing and trying to react to the above imbalance situation between bid and asks, it will be impossible to get in at a price level enabling you to profit from his observation. For electronically traded markets this is very obvious from the priority mechanism implemented by the exchange in algorithm. You simply end up last in the huge line of bidders. Jack is completely oblivious to this, so he keeps rambling along, uncaught but admired by the many naive, bubba7 and grob in the first row.

What ET should do about this? I really don't know. I don't spend very much time around here but I find the place very interesting. Once in a while I try to post something in the hope that it will help to keep ET this way trying to squelch what I perceive as gross nonsense. I hope that I contributed a spark of sanity to ET.

nononsens

Nice follow up description. But you are beating a dead horse of your creation.

I trade at market using reversals.

Your assumption that I get in line is a silly one. It is obvoius to you that joining a group and waiting in line is silly.

It is also obvous to everyone else as well.

An important part of traiding is to be ahead of the herd.

Rewrite what you posted showing how it works for people who trade with market orders as most people I know do.

Get it right for once.

 

[Grob109]

Quote from nononsense:


laz, you bring this up, Jack did not discuss this mechanism in his table and placards story. As he pretends to inform beginners, he should have mentioned at least something about this.

I am not convinced by your hearsay evidence: "Even txx (one of his more persistent hecklers) heard him make the calls in real time. "Did Jack not claim he traded on IB, at least this is what I recognized from his published listing. Do you make calls to do this? How can you be fast enough if you have to do these kind of things over the telephone? How come one of his most persistent hecklers was present at the right moment to hear him make calls.

nononsense

The story was put up to create a picture.

You got the picture.

You are able to write an narrative using the picture.

In another post I ask you to rewrite it to deal with how an SCT person comes into the room.

SCT people do not syand in lines or groups as many people are pointing out to you. As you say you do not read much of this stuff. you probably didn't read my comment on the beauty posted by AMT4SWA. My words said print it and frame it.

What people get is a picture. Take that text and spend some time making it presentable. Get it in shape so it can beeen seen. It ties together every piece of the T&S. It is a beauty.

Now in this posting of yours, you are learning from someone about the spread. Too bad you didn't read a one liner that came into the chat midday. It was some humor about trading two tick bars with a three point spread. Some day you might even see that just exactly that was being done where market orders were in use to make it necessary to buy the spread.

Here's the punch line. Why do I do that?

You need more than a lousy guess to find the right answer.

Who cares if you ever find out? I would skip it were I you. It will never fit into your skill bank.

 

[Grob109]

I used "point" where I should have use tick in the prior post. You need it correctly typed to see the humor.