US senator new bill targeting Hong Kong new law

[faltd]

The agreement was between China and the UK. If UK feels violated then it can speak up, in international courts. My agreement with Amazon and its potential violation for example has nothing to do with you. Neither does the handover agreement have anything to do with the US. And sure what the US does is completely up to the US. But don't fault the rest of the world to now stand up against not Russia and China but against America's unpredictable, eyebrow raising, and outright chaotic meddling in the affairs of more than a dozen nations and territories. At some point it becomes comical when a nation, that internally struggles to define itself still after 200 years and come to terms with past injustices, tries to not just lecture others but outright meddle in others' affairs. Fortunately China won't be intimidated and deal with HK as it likes and has the sovereign right to do. Equally, the Nordstream 2 project will be completed shortly and Europe will get a seizable portion of its natural gas from Russia at much cheaper prices than what the US is charging and at lower risk from disruptions. The Russia-European relationship (through good and bad times) goes back much further than the entire existence of the US. So does China's relationship with HK. I am sure everyone outside the US will chuckle at house and senate bullies and go on with life and decide what is best for their own sovereign territory. But for the track record: it is meddling in foreign affairs that the US itself has made clear in the past it does not appreciate when done to itself.

Sure, just don't expect the world to sit idly by. The world is free to embargo China and turn it into Cuba for not respecting agreements. After all, it's every country's decision if they want to deal economically w/despotic rule.

 

[Cuddles]

The agreement was between China and the UK. If UK feels violated then it can speak up, in international courts. My agreement with Amazon and its potential violation for example has nothing to do with you. Neither does the handover agreement anything to do with the US. And sure what the US does is completely up to the US. But don't fault the rest of the world to now stand up against not Russia and China but against America's unpredictable, eyebrow raising, and outright chaotic meddling in the affairs of more than a dozen nations and territories. At some point it becomes comical when a nation, that internally struggles to define itself still after 200 years and come to terms with past injustices, tries to not just lecture others but outright meddle in others' affairs. Fortunately China won't be intimidated and deal with HK as it likes and has the sovereign right to do. Equally, the Nordstream 2 project will be completed shortly and Europe will get a large portion of its natural gas from Russia at much cheaper prices than what the US is charging and at lower risk from disruptions. The Russia-European relationship (through good and bad times) goes back much further than the entire existence of the US. So does China's relationship with HK. I am sure everyone outside the US will chuckle at house and senate bullies and go on with life and decide what is best for their own sovereign territory.

My money is on pissed off world for COVID & the west general respect over human rights going along w/the US on this one. I wouldn't worry, Trump's as likely to feed HK to the wolves as he's done so far & has done with the Uyghurs & Kurds for a cheap political or economic win.

In other words, Trump's as likely to veto such bill as he did w/the Arabian arms sale & dragged his feet on Russian sanctions once Xi reminds him of Chinese owned Trump debt or gives him some concessions.

 

[faltd]

You cast a too narrow net. Not only has Trump let down others. It was past presidents and administrations who let down Taiwan after first promising support. Nobody trusts the US will follow through on its promises to support Taiwan or HK hence those are completely hollow voices of support. The issue in this thread is on the US meddling in HK, not about COVID or whether you ideologically like or dislike China. Your opinions are respectable and noted and I actually share most opinions with you. Yet, if I or you were US policy makers we ought not meddle in other sovereign nation's affairs. Perhaps nations like Panama or Columbia succumbed to such behavior, Europe and China will not. HK is already being migrated to Chinese laws and rules and the process will be completed way before the 2047 deadline. The Nordstream 2 pipeline might be slightly delayed but it will be completed and Europe supplied with Russian natural gas whether the US senate and house likes it or not.

My money is on pissed off world for COVID & the west general respect over human rights going along w/the US on this one. I wouldn't worry, Trump's as likely to feed HK to the wolves as he's done so far & has done with the Uyghurs & Kurds for a cheap political or economic win.

 

[Cuddles]

You cast a too narrow net. Not only has Trump let down others. It was past presidents and administrations who let down Taiwan after first promising support. Nobody trusts the US will follow through on its promises to support Taiwan or HK hence those are completely hollow voices of support. The issue in this thread is on the US meddling in HK, not about COVID or whether you ideologically like or dislike China. Your opinions are respectable and noted and I actually share most opinions with you. Yet, if I or you were US policy makers we ought not meddle in other sovereign nation's affairs. Perhaps nations like Panama or Columbia succumbed to such behavior, Europe and China will not. HK is already being migrated to Chinese laws and rules and the process will be completed way before the 2047 deadline. The Nordstream 2 pipeline might be slightly delayed but it will be completed and Europe supplied with Russian natural gas whether the US senate and house likes it or not.

The US has lost standing in the world stage under this administration I won't deny it. You just can't expect the west to sit idly as people's human rights are trampled en masse is what I'm saying, regardless of whose sovereignty is offended. As long as China can be hurt through mercantilism, people will do so w/their wallets, even if politicians refuse to do so.

China may think their economy may do better without the current president, but I won't expect their internal affairs to be better off with the other guy, now that this guy's given him tools to keep in place (tariffs).

 

[faltd]

Again,my opinion and yours on human rights violations is valid and agrees. But can European nations' and Russian and Chinese submarine and aircraft carriers now circle around Florida and California because some human rights were violated in the US (which they are every single day)? Or what about the remaining 100 nations in the world where human rights are violated. You are suggesting that if we as Westerners don't feel quite right about something that this gives us a right to go to foreign places and play God? Or that we out of pure self interest and for political gain meddle in some countries' affairs but not others?

The US has lost standing in the world stage under this administration I won't deny it. You just can't expect the west to sit idly as people's human rights are trampled en masse is what I'm saying, regardless of whose sovereignty is offended. As long as China can be hurt through mercantilism, people will do so w/their wallets, even if politicians refuse to do so.

China may think their economy may do better without the current president, but I won't expect their internal affairs to be better off with the other guy, now that this guy's given him tools to keep in place (tariffs).

 

[Cuddles]

Again,my opinion and yours on human rights violations is valid and agrees. But can European nations' and Russian and Chinese submarine and aircraft carriers now circle around Florida and California because some human rights were violated in the US (which they are every single day)? Or what about the remaining 100 nations in the world where human rights are violated. You are suggesting that if we as Westerners don't feel quite right about something that this gives us a right to go to foreign places and play God? Or that we out of pure self interest and for political gain meddle in some countries' affairs but not others?

It's not playing god to embargo/boycott another country and hurt them economically. Nobody's saying put boots on the ground on HK. The rest of the world is free to embargo/boycott the US over human right abuses on immigration detention centers for instance, but they don't out of cowardice.

The naval ships on south China sea are a completely different issue over naval grab of disputed waters & have nothing to do with HK.

 

[faltd]

So, just so I understand correctly which opinions and thoughts align and which don't, are you saying that nations can freeze assets and influence politics in other sovereign nations because they feel certain behavior as being unacceptable? Meddling in other sovereign nations' politics and freezing assets is not just a boycott or embargo. Remember the loud scream when Russia was accused of playing American politics? " In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you" does not seem to apply to some cultures.

It's not playing god to embargo/boycott another country and hurt them economically. Nobody's saying put boots on the ground on HK. The rest of the world is free to embargo/boycott the US over human right abuses on immigration detention centers for instance, but they don't out of cowardice.

The naval ships on south China sea are a completely different issue over naval grab of disputed waters & have nothing to do with HK.

 

[gaussian]

I think you are skating his real point, which is that one nation is meddling in the SOVEREIGN affairs of another country. It is irrelevant whether you like or dislike the policies of another country. It's not your backyard nor under your sovereign control. But you can voice wishes and wants of course.

As much as democracy has proven resilient, communist China has lifted more people out of poverty than most empires & provided its citizens a relatively safe, & just society with equality we've yet to match. Nobody's going to wage war against China on HK going back on the agreed terms.

This is at best misguided. You guys need to read up on your history when it comes to China. They haven't been a successful country by themselves since prior to the century of humiliation and only barely came of age after the communist uprising. Their primary source of income appears to be through territory acquisition and not through direct production. Though it's hard to get any real numbers since they hide them.

Hong Kong is not sovereign. It hasn't been. The English handed Hong Kong back after the 99 year agreement leaving the idea of capitalism and democracy instilled in their country at the core. Do you really believe "Hong Kong is deciding" when they have pro-CCP officials actively undermining their people?

It's relevant. Here's why:

Hong Kong was originally an English territory and only recently (in the last 20 or so years) handed back to China. Under this system Hong Kong has significant freedoms that the mainland doesn't have. China sees this as a slight to them and their god emperor Winnie and so they want it back. It's hard to run a state controlled by propaganda and fear when a territory you current possess knows differently.

Moreover Hong Kong is a central location for foreign investment. Foreign investors do not want money tied up directly in China because the companies that get it are chicom owned and supported. No company, not even apple, wants the stain of communism on their beautiful capitalist dream. Hong Kong provides a nice middle ground. This has resulted in prosperity unknown to mainlanders who are envious of Hong Kong's success in the global marketplace.

In particular China uses Hong Kong's currencies to deal in foreign investment. Losing control of this would mean losing control of their grasp on western investment.

This is relevant because in 1992 the US had thought about stopping business with Hong Kong because it appeared unable to separate itself from the mainland. The separation of Hong Kong from Mainland China is critical not only to the global financial situation in Asia but also China's only real source of major income during it's current downswing.

China, consequently, is willing to risk life and limb to do two things:

1. Protect it's control over it's abused spouse (Hong Kong) because it has paid them dividends at gunpoint since 1997.

2. Prevent western control directly on their border (mostly this one).


DO NOT think this issue is simply a quarrel between two different systems of government. This is a global economic battle. One one side we have totalitarian control with money being funneled up to the CCP to fund global communist propaganda, and on the other hand we have democracy and freedom - the democracy and freedom that has enabled Hong Kong for the last nearly two centuries to be more prosperous and more free than anyone on the mainland.

Why are they willing to kill, imprison, disappear, and propagandize w.r.t. Hong Kong? Simple - the must keep the image up to the mainlanders that Hong Kong is simply an unruly child needing to be brought into line. No one considers the fact China makes a shitload of money from foreign investment otherwise unavailable to them directly through Hong Kong and using their currency.

Outside of Taiwan this is probably one of the biggest capitalism vs. communism fights in the last 70 years. The west wants access to Asia and we get it through Hong Kong. China wants control of Hong Kong to capitalize on that because many companies won't do business directly with China. The "proxy war" in Hong Kong is one of economics.

I don't even feel the need to dignify your comment on equality and justice in China @Here4money. You are far better than that and you know as well as I do that outside of the party there is no justice and no equality in China. There's so little justice and equality westerners are advised strongly against traveling there even for business.

 

[faltd]

Couple observations: it pays to separate posts by subtopic. Makes for easier reading and a better discussion. Throwing million items into one pot basically means the elephant entered the room, trampled on everything and basically signals all others to shut up. And, you may want to read up yourself a bit further on the history of HK before you try to school others. HK has not been free at all for the past two centuries. It has been an occupation and colony and the UK made sure it was felt that way. Few other inaccuracies but no point mentioning them.

It's hard to glean what point you tried to make and how you want to be part of an exchange of thoughts.

This is at best misguided. You guys need to read up on your history when it comes to China. They haven't been a successful country by themselves since prior to the century of humiliation and only barely came of age after the communist uprising. Their primary source of income appears to be through territory acquisition and not through direct production. Though it's hard to get any real numbers since they hide them.

Hong Kong is not sovereign. It hasn't been. The English handed Hong Kong back after the 99 year agreement leaving the idea of capitalism and democracy instilled in their country at the core. Do you really believe "Hong Kong is deciding" when they have pro-CCP officials actively undermining their people?

It's relevant. Here's why:

Hong Kong was originally an English territory and only recently (in the last 20 or so years) handed back to China. Under this system Hong Kong has significant freedoms that the mainland doesn't have. China sees this as a slight to them and their god emperor Winnie and so they want it back. It's hard to run a state controlled by propaganda and fear when a territory you current possess knows differently.

Moreover Hong Kong is a central location for foreign investment. Foreign investors do not want money tied up directly in China because the companies that get it are chicom owned and supported. No company, not even apple, wants the stain of communism on their beautiful capitalist dream. Hong Kong provides a nice middle ground. This has resulted in prosperity unknown to mainlanders who are envious of Hong Kong's success in the global marketplace.

In particular China uses Hong Kong's currencies to deal in foreign investment. Losing control of this would mean losing control of their grasp on western investment.

This is relevant because in 1992 the US had thought about stopping business with Hong Kong because it appeared unable to separate itself from the mainland. The separation of Hong Kong from Mainland China is critical not only to the global financial situation in Asia but also China's only real source of major income during it's current downswing.

China, consequently, is willing to risk life and limb to do two things:

1. Protect it's control over it's abused spouse (Hong Kong) because it has paid them dividends at gunpoint since 1997.

2. Prevent western control directly on their border (mostly this one).


DO NOT think this issue is simply a quarrel between two different systems of government. This is a global economic battle. One one side we have totalitarian control with money being funneled up to the CCP to fund global communist propaganda, and on the other hand we have democracy and freedom - the democracy and freedom that has enabled Hong Kong for the last nearly two centuries to be more prosperous and more free than anyone on the mainland.

Why are they willing to kill, imprison, disappear, and propagandize w.r.t. Hong Kong? Simple - the must keep the image up to the mainlanders that Hong Kong is simply an unruly child needing to be brought into line. No one considers the fact China makes a shitload of money from foreign investment otherwise unavailable to them directly through Hong Kong and using their currency.

Outside of Taiwan this is probably one of the biggest capitalism vs. communism fights in the last 70 years. The west wants access to Asia and we get it through Hong Kong. China wants control of Hong Kong to capitalize on that because many companies won't do business directly with China. The "proxy war" in Hong Kong is one of economics.

I don't even feel the need to dignify your comment on equality and justice in China @Here4money. You are far better than that and you know as well as I do that outside of the party there is no justice and no equality in China. There's so little justice and equality westerners are advised strongly against traveling there even for business.

 

[destriero]

American politicians don't have better things to do then meddle in another country politics

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/s...ls-over-hong-kong-security-law-wsj-2020-05-21

Punishing individuals and politicians and gov't bureaucrats doing their job?

It's called political interference by a foreign country or US imperialism ,mind your freaking business. america has it's own civil war. and issues within it's own country

Its none of American politician business what another country enact laws for. Lot of countries pot is illegal and gambling is illegal. etc.

Not your jurisdiction of your problem

Wuhan? Ring a bell? Thanks for that, Bro. Stop eating fucking bats and Pangolins.