US occupation plans for Iraq?

So why are you so vehement about Iraq and Islam if you have muslim friends??? I doubt it...

when an argument is no good, you bring another one and then another one and then another one... But none seems solid enough to stop the 500,000 person mainly non muslim to protest in London against the injustice....

For me you are like a guy I knew in europe who was an iranian spy that used the same rethoric than you...

Iraq by the way combated the integrist governement of Iran with the help and consent of the west and all the other arab states..

Don't tell me that what you reproach Iraq is being integrist country... yet it is becoming because of the US an integrist country but it never was... This was a laic country before 1991.. and always in the government you had christians.... the prime minister today is tarik aziz a christian!!!!

For me, you are not what you mean you are... a guy that left Iran because of persecution but a rich guy that left with his family that had bank accounts in europe and the Us... iF NOT YOU WOULD STILL BE IN IRAN...
 
TF2000,

you've got me pegged! Its true I am a billionaire playboy who skipped out of town and dabble in spying on the side for the US.

damn! Now I'll have to work on a new cover. :D
 
Babak,

I have an atheist Iranian friend who, like you, was expelled for being 'counter-revolutionary' (he is a journalist)... I have the deepest respect for Iranian culture (amongst the oldest in the world, and the source of many facets of modern western culture), and indeed for the Bahai faith... I have indeed visited Bahai temples in the USA, in Israel (Haifa) and in Europe.

Let me suggest this... once the USA has finished with Iraq and taken control of its oil resources, Iran is likely to be next on the hitlist of Bush's 'axis of evil'... the USA will concoct some reason to attack it in order to go in and control Iranian oil supplies.... hundreds of thousands of innocent Iranians are likely to be butchered by the American military, in their pursuit of oil and power.

I can understand why you want to see Iraq bombed, after what it did to Iran using American-supplied weapons of mass destruction. But, my friend, your country is next, and the lives of hundreds of thousands of your fellow Iranian countrymen (be they muslim, bahai, parsi or whatever) are likely to be lost... if you are to be consistent, you must support the American butchery of Iranians, not just the American butchery of Iraqis...

Candle
 
Originally posted by traderfut2000
So why are you so vehement about Iraq and Islam if you have muslim friends??? I doubt it...
More...

the rest of your posts sounds like you are talking to babak, but that question seems directed to me, so i'll answer it.

i said my best friends were arabs, "were" past tense. but the reason they no longer are has nothing to do with religion, i've moved cities. and of course if i was to actually meet another arab/s i would have no problems at all being friends with them.

and your question presupposes that anyone with muslim friends could not possibly be "vehement" about war against iraq, which is obviously not true, and just another on the long list of your diversionary tactics..

anyone, like i've said, this thread actually deals with the question of a US occupation of iraq for a period of time after the invasion (if it takes place). i wonder if you can keep your cool for two minutes and tell us whether you think that would be a good idea TF?
 
candle,

I do not want to see Iraq bombed. Unfortunately I think you have mistaken my words on this board. I am not some revenge driven maniac cackling with delight and rubbing my boney hands at the thought of Iraqi deaths. Yes I was born in Tehran and I love my country but will you believe me if I say I remember almost nothing of my childhood? That I've spent most of my life outside Iran?

I know that you may be skeptical of my motives but I have no wish for any Iraqis to be killed, just as I wish no one period to be killed. I bear no ill will towards anyone or any government and wish no malice upon no one for the atrocities of the war between Iraq and Iran. You may not believe me but I can not do more than state what is in my heart.

The reason that I support the US is that I believe that in the long run, the Iraqi people and the world will be better off with Saddam gone and a democratic government in his place.

What you say about Iran is possible. But it is conjecture. I still have relatives in Iran and ofcourse, I would not want any harm to come to them. Can the US possible go to war with Iran? yes its possible. Especially considering that they fund suicide bombers and Hezbollah to the tune of $100 M every year.

Iran however is a different ball of yarn altogether. Did you know that Iranians today celebrate the 4th of July? Bet you didn't know that. Islamic fundamentalism thrives on and needs hate. They have to direct hate towards someone, something inorder to distract the population from the corruption and mismanagement of the economy. The Iranian people are mostly youth and they have no hatred for anyone. They reject the repeated attempts of the clergy to thrust hate down their throats.

Very soon Iran will change as a result of internal forces rather than external ones. Even now there is a bill going through the Iranian Parliament. Its purpose is to give real power to the democratically elected president (Khatami). Once it passed the parliament it goes to the Guardian Council. There it will be rejected.

No one knows what will happen. Maybe upon seeing first hand how they are ruled by a group of old men with long beards, the people will realize that they don't live in a democracy. Maybe they will stream into the streets as they have never done before. Maybe the whole power structure will collapse. I don't know but we'll see.

Getting back to the main idea. I don't support the butchering of anyone. I suppose we see things differently. I see the US as a force for good in this example. I see them giving the Iraqi people their country back, their freedom and dignity back. Will they do the same to Iran? I don't know. But I hope that all this could be accomplished without any bloodshed.

BTW, for those that keep insisting that this is all about oil. Did you know that Sao Tome and Principe sits on top of reserves of oil and gas that rival Saudi Arabia? (dust of the ol' atlas and get thee to a recent edition of the New Yorker magazine) If I were in Bush's place and I wanted control over oil, it would be a heck of a lot easier to take over that place (standing army of 1200 men) than Iraq. Don't you think?
 
candletrader, i can understand how the actions of the united states in international affairs can be regarded as unfair, unjust, meddling, etc etc but i think if you look throughout history, the actions of the most powerful nation of the time have been far far worse than anything the US has ever done.

of course the obvious rejoinder is to say that "yeah, but these are modern times, you can't compare what america is doing now to things that happened hundreds of years ago". what is missing with that argument, however, is that we would not have "modern times" to speak were it not for the prevalence of western thought and western technology, so i think my example is valid.

i shudder to think of what the world would be like had an islamic nation been the world's most powerful.


you preach a message of universal understanding and co-operation. that is great. the thing is, it requires two to tango. people in the west are all too willing to work with other cultures peacefully. can we say the same thing about the general disposition of the peoples of the middle east? hell no. i don't see any mass gatherings of crazed fanatics in america demanding "death to the arabs" do you? yet when events like this occur on the hour in the middle east you pass it off as perfectly acceptable behavior. i don't think it takes a blood thirsty war-monger to point out the fault in that equation.
 
To make things clear … I am against any unjustified attack on Iraq like 90% of the planet let alone occupying and colonising this country… 500,000 people demonstarted in London this is enormous and I was there....

Now, don’t tell me that you have friends and that you consider them as crazy and fanatic and hating the West..
If this was the case, then these are not your friends since they also hate you… Correct me if I am wrong.. and you cannot consider them as friends for the same reason!!!!

But 2 points , there are 250 million Arab and more than 1.2 billion Muslim in the world… If you met assholes in Australia… these are simply assholes…

This does not justify attacking a whole country or killing more hundred thousands of people… and as I told you stop hearing propaganda and go to some Muslim countries…

Turkey, Syria, Egypt, morocco, and the probability is 100% that you will be well accepted and welcomed.. Just go there and see with your own eyes… But don’t take a marginal case Arab immigrant in Australia and make a case for all Arabs… this is not consistent.. It's like the history of the american who met one chinese and thought he understood the thinking and behavior of all chinese... he forgot there were 1 billion chinese...

Concerning your last post. Yes Islam ruled the world once during 700 years and thanks to those Arab and Muslim and it was the first time the three religion were gathered … Concerning Arab hatred I doubt it is so widespread.. in this forum, there is no arab that said kill the american and yet there are some people in here with arab origin or Muslim confession, but instead we have people like you, smokey that calls for the killing of more innocent people… Who is really in fault here…

I posted this article before from a US university professor… As strange as it may seem nobody gave his view on it… http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/ikilledapalestinian.htm
 
Was given to Carter...

You know why??? Because they believed that Bush was a crazy man... I don't think that these people were that manipulated...

and Daniel stop saying there are 2 distinct civilization.. This is just wrong...

Arab was the language used in Oxford, Sorbonne and Bologne till the 15/16th century to learn medecine, mathematics, physics, astrology...... till the 19th century european used averoes books to learn medecine...

Platon, Aristotle, Socrate were not translated from latin or greek to european languages but from arabic to other european languages since all the philosophers books were burned by the Church.. This is something very few people in europe or in the USa know. they want to see arabs as savage... It is very easy to criticize a person without any history ...

All the civilizations are great and brought things to humanity...
Putting a whole population in one category is simply racist and fascist...
 
To make things clear … I am against any unjustified attack on Iraq like 90% of the planet let alone occupying and colonising this country… 500,000 people demonstarted in London this is enormous and I was there....

i guess you didn't understand my question. i asked you whether you think that IF - IF - an invasion occurs, you think that a temporary american occupation would be a good idea or not?

and please stop using that tired old "500,000 people can't be wrong" line.

Now, don’t tell me that you have friends and that you consider them as crazy and fanatic and hating the West..
If this was the case, then these are not your friends since they also hate you… Correct me if I am wrong.. and you cannot consider them as friends for the same reason!!!!

traderfut, these people didn't just come and blurt out all their innermost feelings to me, my friendship with them developed over years. for whatever reason, from time to time we did discuss matters of international significance and our views on life, during which i learnt a lot about their views. they were not hate filled assholes as you make them out to be, and didn't state their whole views in graphic detail, but it doesn't take an anthropologist to put pieces of the puzzle together (as i did) to understand where they are coming from.
the thing is, we were pretty young, (teens to early twenties), so these things don't really become a huge obstacle to friendship, as young minds are filled with other thoughts.

different story when it comes to their families though. i was extremely close friends with these guys, yet their families regarded me with more mistrust and suspicion (and caused internal family arguments over whether i could be their friend) than i have ever encountered with any other group of people. some of these friends confided in me the views of older arabs. these guys have no reason to lie, plus it's not like i'm a blind moron who can't put two and two together. you're arab yourself so i have no doubt you know what i'm talking about. babak too i would suspect.

This does not justify attacking a whole country or killing more hundred thousands of people… and as I told you stop hearing propaganda and go to some Muslim countries…

that's the thing. it's not propaganda, but crystal clear truth. i know that calling it "propaganda" is pretty much you're only way out. but i'm sorry dude, i can only call them how i see them.


Turkey, Syria, Egypt, morocco, and the probability is 100% that you will be well accepted and welcomed.. Just go there and see with your own eyes… But don’t take a marginal case Arab immigrant in Australia and make a case for all Arabs… this is not consistent.. It's like the history of the american who met one chinese and thought he understood the thinking and behavior of all chinese... he forgot there were 1 billion chinese...

naturally you neglect to mention the other not-so-friendly countries...
look, i'm not putting down the people themselves. i have said that a million times. in fact i think it's a great shame that the pervasiveness of islam in these people's lives usually causes them to be intolerant and mistrustful (and worse) of other cultures. truly that is a shame. but it is definitely fact.

and again, i'm not basing my views on one marginal case, i have known closely dozens of arabs, and not so closely, hundreds. i know what i'm talking about.

Concerning Arab hatred I doubt it is so widespread

well turn on your damn TV man! read the literature emanates from fundamentalist arab organizations! hel, what am i telling you for, you're arab, you're well aware of it. you just play dumb.


I posted this article before from a US university professor… As strange as it may seem nobody gave his view on it… http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/ikilledapalestinian.htm

if no one's commented on it, it's cos we've been through that discussion a thousand times, this thread doesn't really deal with that question, and the issue is far more complicated than that author makes it out to be.
 
Originally posted by traderfut2000


and Daniel stop saying there are 2 distinct civilization.. This is just wrong...

Arab was the language used in Oxford, Sorbonne and Bologne till the 15/16th century to learn medecine, mathematics, physics, astrology...... till the 19th century european used averoes books to learn medecine...

Platon, Aristotle, Socrate were not translated from latin or greek to european languages but from arabic to other european languages since all the philosophers books were burned by the Church.. This is something very few people in europe or in the USa know. they want to see arabs as savage... It is very easy to criticize a person without any history ...

All the civilizations are great and brought things to humanity...
Putting a whole population in one category is simply racist and fascist...
More...

as i've said before, arab contributions to civilization ended loooong ago.
 
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