US going to hell in a hand basket?
- Thread starter axeman
- Start date
Why does this quote discredit Lincoln? It's just a reflection of the way things were back in that time period.Quote from Error 404:
No Alfonso, I don't need to check it out, I am quite sure I can trust you on this. It does seem however that your idea of "fun" is to show everyone that the US is not perfect. Guess what? Even MondoTrader (well, maybe using him is a stretch, but I will go out on that limb anyway) know we are not "perfect". Not now, and not ever.
But we try and make things better. We try and change when we realize there is injustice, or inequality. We really do have a sense of "right vs. wrong". Sometimes we blunder. We are just a nation of people.
Our "heroification" of historical figures is really quite limited. We have a statue here and there, a few monuments, and usually a picture of the current President at any given time in our post offices. We do not have omnipresent posters, banners and murals all over the country like has and still does occur in so many parts of the world. We don't worship these men. We just honor them.
So I find your seeking out and posting the Lincoln quote as being nothing but mean spirited at best. How would you like it if a record was kept of every word you ever said. And excerpted by those who looked to exploit your misstated or regretted words? . Being "on the record" all the time is a horrible thing. Having that "record' used to discredit you is even worse. Also, 140+ years is an awfully long time
Peace,
RS
Proper quotation will include date and context of quote.
Politicians are well known to say different things at different times. No doubt we could find quotes from Adolph Hitler early in his life that were sanguine and upliftiing of the human spirit. I wager we could even find passages that supported the Jews in some speech he gave early on.
Lincoln's and Hitler's actions are what matters though, and how history remembers them, not some silly speech or comments.
If the quote is "very true" provide a link so we can "check it out."
You can't stand "heroification" yet you worship and preach the thoughts of Marx, Engles, and other fellow communists?
Typical drivel.
The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois on September 18, 1858 (Vol. III, pp. 145-461).
What's the big deal? The misuse of the quote for inflammatory fodder is easily debunked. Lincoln scoffed at any melding of the white and black races, as did most of the nation. The Abolishionists wanted to abolish slavery, not put them on completely equal terms with themselves; they were staunch segregationists.
Thanks, and makes my point exactly.
We can go back to debates of the past and find all kind rhetoric that had more to do with getting elected than the actual administration of office.
Heck, we can even remember presidents who claimed they would not raise taxes.
"Read my lips....."
PUT UP OR SHUT UP; AND STOP THOSE LIPS
Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune, Nov 3, 1988, p. 3
My conservative friend Grump looked alarmed. He stared at my face for several seconds, then said: "What's wrong with you? Have you developed a twitch?''
Nothing is wrong with me.
"Then why are you wiggling your lips that way?''
I wasn't wiggling my lips. I was speaking to you.
"But you weren't saying anything.''
Of course I was. And if you read my lips, you would have understood.
"Read your lips? I can't read lips.''
I'm sorry, but I thought all Republicans could read lips. I mean, George Bush is always saying "read my lips,'' so I assumed that this was a common Republican skill.
"You don't understand. He says that for emphasis, to drive home a point, to make sure that people understand that he means what he says.''
Ah, I understand. When he says: "Read my lips: no new taxes,'' he wants us to make no mistake about it - there will be no new taxes when he is in the White House.
"Exactly. Now, what were you trying to say when you were wiggling your lips at me?''
What I was saying was: Read my lips, I want to make a bet with you.
"What kind of bet.''
Read my lips: I want to make a big bet.
"How big a bet?''
Read my lips: I want to bet $5,000.
"That is a considerable sum. And what is it you wish to bet on?''
Read my lips. I will bet you $5,000 that George Bush is feeding us a line.
"Be careful. I will not tolerate any insults directed at our Pollster-Designated Commander-in-Chief.''
Don't change the subject. Are you a betting man or aren't you?
"You haven't even said what we will be betting on.''
All right. Read my lips. I bet you five Big Ones that if George Bush becomes president, our taxes will go up.
"Just one moment. He didn't say taxes wouldn't go up. He said no new taxes.''
Don't play word games, Grump. If taxes go up, the increase is new. So any tax increase amounts to new taxes.
"What you're saying, in your usually crude way, is that George Bush is not being sincere.''
Read my lips: He's flat-out lying.
"By George, if it weren't illegal, I'd toss my glove in your face and challenge you to a duel.''
Never mind. Are you going to take the bet or aren't you?
"Betting is illegal.''
So is selling weapons to the ayatollah. Come on Grump, Columbus took a chance.
"How do you intend to structure this bet?''
We will each come up with 5 Gs, cash money. We'll put it in an interest-bearing escrow account. Then we will wait. If, after four years, there is no tax increase, you win. If there is a tax increase - which is a sure thing - I win.
"Taxes are a complex matter. Sometimes a tax increase isn't really an increase at all, but in economic theory, it is a decrease.''
Read my lips: We'll know if it is an increase. But to be certain, we will jointly select a neutral tax expert. Or even a panel of experts. And we will let them decide if a tax increase really is a tax increase.
"I'll have to think about it.''
Think about it? Grump, read my lips: You are chicken.
"I don't have to tolerate insults.''
Read my lips: You are worse than chicken. You are a quail, which is a tiny chicken.
"I think I should get odds. How about 2 to 1?''
I was right. You are a quail.
"Enough. Yes, there will be new taxes. But it will be the fault of the Democrats in Congress.''
Read my lips: That isn't what Bush has been saying. He's been saying: Read my lips: no new taxes. So let's not start making excuses before the dirty deed is even done.
"I don't have to listen to this scurrilous bilge. Keep your bet. I have better things to do.''
Yes, you can put up some more Willie Horton posters.
"Goodbye, you pinko.''
With that, Grump was gone. But I haven't given up.
Read my lips: Any Republican out there who wants to cover my bet, just give me a call. It will prove you aren't a quail.
Just a pigeon.
You missed my point. I am not dismissing yours. They are different points.
You seem to be saying that Lincoln's quote is "OK" simply because he's a politician, I'm saying that is not the reason it's "OK" as it was just a true reflection of the time period. Just as "the Earth is flat." or "The Sun revolves around the Earth." were once also valid reflections and accepted thought of another period in history.
I am neither defending his quote or attacking it. My "point" goes to the nature of politics.