US going to hell in a hand basket?

dotslashfuture · May 15, 2003

humans as a race have not benefitted one iota from socialism !

Ask somebody who actually lived in a socialist system, not some overpaid PHD. who never did an honest days work in his life, and thinks he has the right to tell others how to live !

bungrider · May 15, 2003

Quote from dotslashfuture:

DO YOU HAVE COURAGE TO LIVE IN A FREE MARKET ???

obviously most americans do not have the courage to live in a free society...

and i really wish the govt would stay the f*** out of the economy and stop spending money....

picknclick · May 15, 2003

Quote from dotslashfuture:

humans as a race have not benefitted one iota from socialism !

Ask somebody who actually lived in a socialist system, not some overpaid PHD. who never did an honest days work in his life, and thinks he has the right to tell others how to live !

All of Europe is essentially socialist and they seem to be doing fine. Canada is socialist and they seem to be ok. Have you lived in a socialist system? If so, what was wrong with it?

When I went to college in England people seemed to enjoy life just fine. The only problem is that you get these regional variances in health care systems... like in England, for some reason, the people didn't use their dental coverage. Other than that, the transportation system was efficient and cheap and the standard of living was great.

dotslashfuture · May 15, 2003

I have known people from England, Germany, France, Cuba, Vietnam, China, and many other places, mostly through work. All of them moved here for a better life. They maintain their patriotism for the homeland, but they know they can live better here than anywhere else, they voted with their feet.

alfonso · May 15, 2003

Quote from axeman:

I agree. Gotta stop the spending/waste.
Unfortunately, I believe that is even tougher than
getting tax cuts. Spending/waste gettings
politicians into office.

It's very easy to just bash spending and to think that eliminating it is the answer to all your problems.

Unfortunately, it ignores the reality of the situation.

Government spending is emminently useful in management fluctuations in the economy, and without it, you'd have a much rockier ride in recovering from the inevitable recessions that free markets go through.

And it's hardly as if ALL government spending is "wasteful". How do you ever plan on reaching a consensus on what is "waste" and what isn't?

For example, to some, mostly rich conservatives, social security is a "waste". I, and many others, certainly don't see it that way.

alfonso · May 15, 2003

Quote from picknclick:

All of Europe is essentially socialist and they seem to be doing fine. Canada is socialist and they seem to be ok. Have you lived in a socialist system? If so, what was wrong with it?

Europe isn't "essentially socialist"; not in the Marxian sense what socialism means, not by a long shot. What they do have is a greater role for government. (Which I, personally, think is good.)

alfonso · May 15, 2003

Quote from dotslashfuture:

I have known people from England, Germany, France, Cuba, Vietnam, China, and many other places, mostly through work. All of them moved here for a better life. They maintain their patriotism for the homeland, but they know they can live better here than anywhere else, they voted with their feet.

You are out of your mind!

Do you truly believe the US has the "best" (not that you objectively judge that) living standards in the world?

What a joke.

alfonso · May 15, 2003

Quote from axeman:

This is precisely where your argument is flawed.

You are implying that just because you can find eras
where there was growth with high taxes, that high
taxes do not stifle anything.

The fact is, you have no idea if the over all growth
would have actually been HIGHER had taxes been lower
in those eras.

No, I was not implying that high taxes don't stifle growth; I freely admit that they do. My point was that low taxes are not an essential requirement to get growth.

And you're right, I have no idea if growth could have been higher, and frankly, I don't care. As I said before, I don't put the focus on attaining the highest possible level of growth.

AAAintheBeltway · May 15, 2003

Quote from picknclick:

All of Europe is essentially socialist and they seem to be doing fine. Canada is socialist and they seem to be ok. Have you lived in a socialist system? If so, what was wrong with it?

When I went to college in England people seemed to enjoy life just fine. The only problem is that you get these regional variances in health care systems... like in England, for some reason, the people didn't use their dental coverage. Other than that, the transportation system was efficient and cheap and the standard of living was great.

Socialism actually has some rational appeal for countries with highly homogenous populations like Sweden. There are widely shared values, including the idea that it is poor form to show up your neighbors with material goods. By eliminating or severely moderating the economic competitiveness inherent in capitalism, you no doubt can enjoy a pleasant lifestyle, at least for a while.

Obviously those conditions do not apply here. It is hard to get people to work, when they see their labors supporting a bunch of sullen slackers.

I am pretty familiar with England,and I can tell you that plenty of people there live wretched lives by our stnadards. Socialized medicine is great until you really need care, then if you're too old or for some reason don't qualify you are SOL. Things we take for granted like elective surgery or MRI's can take months.

We also need to realize that many of these countries have not had pervasive socialism for very long, maybe since WW II at the most. As we are seeing with our experiment in socialism, social security, there tends to be a Ponzi-scheme character to socialist programs. You trade your economic freedom for a promise of security, but when the day comes to collect, another group of masters tells you sorry, we're out of money. And for every rich european country where things seem to be ok, I can show you a dozen in Africa, Asia or South america where socialism is a total failure.

alfonso · May 15, 2003

Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

And for every rich european country where things seem to be ok, I can show you a dozen in Africa, Asia or South america where socialism is a total failure.

I don't know why people persist in calling "socialism", when it's nothing of the like. "Social Democracy" is the correct term.

I'm not sure which South American countries you're talking about, as none of them I know is socialist; indeed, most bend over backwards to accomodate (unreciprocated) American free trade demands.

I think I could probably find more examples of quasi laissez-faire third world countries where the lucky few are raking it in at the expense of starving masses. Certainly "free markets" are no panacea there.